DMD Posted October 28, 2008 #1 Posted October 28, 2008 Anyone know how long they manufactured wings? I suspect some Jostens wings claimed to be WWII vintage are actually USAF wings, maybe 50s or 60s period. I think the same thing can be said for Balfour pilot wings. Does anybody know for certain about Jostens?
John Cooper Posted October 29, 2008 #2 Posted October 29, 2008 The answer will depend on specific examples since there are differences. If you post some specific examples I am sure it will be helpful. Cheers John
DMD Posted October 29, 2008 Author #3 Posted October 29, 2008 Well, here's a possible example, from an auction in progress on eBay (230303979053). There are pieces marked 9M and 22M in the lot, and the ribbon rack has National Defense and Air Force Longevity ribbons. I would assume the Josten wings are post WWII based on the other pieces in the lot. So the question remains: when did Josten stop making wings?
pfrost Posted October 29, 2008 #4 Posted October 29, 2008 Hello, I can't offer any rock solid information on when Josten started or stopped making wings, but I think you can consider a number of things. 1) The JOSTEN hallmark and use of clutch back attachments (as seen on the command pilot wings you show) are found on most of the Josten WWII period wings, such as the WASP wings and the balloon pilot and balloon observer wings. So this command pilot wing easily fits in the WWII time period based on those facts. 2) By the 60's the alpha-numeric code was implemented and (IIRC) all insignia had to utilize this system. Since these wings lack the alpha/numeric code, that suggests that at the very least these wings could have fallen in between WWII and the late 50's early 60's. In fact, I am not sure that Josten even had a code assigned to them (the WAF forum has a very nice listing of code and manufacturer), suggesting to me that they were not making insignia in the 50's. 3) A wing may have been made at one point, but sold some significant time later. Just because it was struck in 1945, for example, doesn't mean it couldn't have sat around in some back storage room in the PX on base. So, this guy could have bought a wing in late 1950 that was made in late 1945. 4) It is possible that this fellow earned the command pilot rating sometime around the end of WWII or just post WWII/KW era, and the Josten wings were the first wings he purchased. Over the next decade or two, he may have purchased more command pilot wings, thus explaining the different hallmarks on the NS Meyer wings (9M being earlier than the 22M code)--so in fact what you see are a range of wings that he bought over his career, thus explaining the different hallmarks. In general, I think most wing collectors would have little problem assigning these Josten wings to WWII or just post WWII vintage. Patrick
John Cooper Posted October 30, 2008 #5 Posted October 30, 2008 Thanks for posting the photos. patrick has provide much of the info I think your are seeking. I would like to know if you can post the CP wing without the clutches to show the detail of the base of the pins and to see how long they are. John
B-17Guy Posted August 27, 2010 #6 Posted August 27, 2010 Josten wings have always been one of my favorite's. Simple, yet high quality. I have the set of Pilot, S/P, C/P, and WASP. However, I have never seen any G, L, or S wings by Josten. Have any of you ever seen any? Cheers, John
pfrost Posted August 27, 2010 #7 Posted August 27, 2010 Josten wings have always been one of my favorite's. Simple, yet high quality. I have the set of Pilot, S/P, C/P, and WASP. However, I have never seen any G, L, or S wings by Josten. Have any of you ever seen any? Cheers, John Nope, I don't recall seeing any of the "alphabet wings", nor the gunner/bombarder nor the navigator wing. I do think they also made the observer wing, and some of the balloon wings--balloon pilot, observer, (and perhaps Cliff can confirm) the airship pilot.
CliffP Posted August 27, 2010 #8 Posted August 27, 2010 Nope, I don't recall seeing any of the "alphabet wings", nor the gunner/bombarder nor the navigator wing. I do think they also made the observer wing, and some of the balloon wings--balloon pilot, observer, (and perhaps Cliff can confirm) the airship pilot. :thumbsup: They definitely make a Senior Balloon Pilot and Balloon Pilot but they did not make an Airship Pilot. :think: While it is only an assumption, I think Patrick is correct in that they also may have made a Balloon Observer, an Observer (officially called a Combat Observer) and, to add one more to that speculative list, a Technical Observer. Cliff
rustywings Posted August 27, 2010 #9 Posted August 27, 2010 Here's an example of a Josten made Combat Observer's badge. The pin is a little bent, but I believe it's honest wear on an authentic piece. Your +/- comments are welcome. Russ
MAA Posted August 27, 2010 #12 Posted August 27, 2010 John, The Josten wings I have encountered over the years include ~ Command Pilot Senior Pilot Pilot WASP Balloon Pilot Senior Balloon Pilot Balloon Observer Observer Hope this helps you ~ Dave
CliffP Posted August 27, 2010 #13 Posted August 27, 2010 Josten Balloon Pilot & Senior Balloon Pilot badges:
John Cooper Posted August 28, 2010 #14 Posted August 28, 2010 Russ & Cliff - thanks for posting such wonderful examples of wing you rarely see. Cheers John
bschwartz Posted August 28, 2010 #15 Posted August 28, 2010 Here's a balloon observer from my website. Unfortunately I don't own this badge. The photos came to me years ago from a gentleman who was trying to determine what it was. He was given the wing as a gift as a child from an elderly neighbor whose yard he mowed. Yes, I know it sounds like a story a repo artist would use when trying to sell a wing but the guy wasn't trying to sell it he just wanted to identify it before giving it to his son. I told him if he ever wanted to sell it I would definitely be interested but no luck. I believe this to be an original badge and not a restrike.
rustywings Posted August 28, 2010 #16 Posted August 28, 2010 Nice Josten-made badges boys! Cliff, your right about Josten making a Technical Observer's badge. I've been fortunate enough to handle a couple over the years. The T/O badge illustrated on page 135 in Jon Maguire's book, "More Silver Wings, Pinks & Greens" appears to be an authentic example. It seems a majority of Josten-made badges were produced with clutch-backs. But when Josten did make pin-backs badges, they used an especially thick pin not commonly seen in wings produced by other manufacturers. Josten pins have a unique block shape where the end of the pin connects to the hinge. (Probably more information than anyone wants...but here's a couple of illustrations of what I'm trying to describe.)
rustywings Posted August 28, 2010 #17 Posted August 28, 2010 Note the thicker block portion of the pin inserted into the hinge. The Josten-made T/O wing illustrated in Jon Maguire's book has the identical unique pin. (Ok, Ill stop and take my medicine!)
pfrost Posted August 28, 2010 #18 Posted August 28, 2010 Note the thicker block portion of the pin inserted into the hinge. The Josten-made T/O wing illustrated in Jon Maguire's book has the identical unique pin. (Ok, Ill stop and take my medicine!) Hi Russ, It is that kind of detail that collectors need now a days. As we have discussed in the past, I am also one who tries to use ALL my senses when studying a wing. Thus, let me ask you, do you find that the Josten wings have other unique characteristics? Say, for example, do they feel heavier? Smell different.... taste different as well? Patrick
rustywings Posted August 31, 2010 #19 Posted August 31, 2010 I see there's a Josten hallmarked Command Pilot wing currently being offered on ebay (#350389154044). It has a pin-back on the reverse, rather than the more common clutch-back. Is it authentic?
pfrost Posted August 31, 2010 #20 Posted August 31, 2010 I see there's a Josten hallmarked Command Pilot wing currently being offered on ebay (#350389154044). It has a pin-back on the reverse, rather than the more common clutch-back. Is it authentic? I would want an iron clad return policy on this one, I think. It is always hard to know for sure with out handling the item, but I see a couple or 3 red flags right off the bat. First, the front looks to have a casting flaw on the left wing. Could be a ding from normal wear and tear, but the rest of the wing seems pretty good. The shield has a sort of look of casting as well. The back has similar casting flaws, and the patina looks like it was put on chemically. It has that sort of matt-grayish/black finish, and it shows evidence that someone tried to buff the high spots (notice how much brighter it is on the edges and tips of the star). That always makes me think of someone trying to artificially age a wing. On the other hand, the hallmark and pin look good, from what I can see. The only way to be sure would be to either handle it in person or get exact measurements and compare it to known good Josten wings. As cast wings will be slightly smaller than the die struck wings. Patrick
pfrost Posted August 31, 2010 #21 Posted August 31, 2010 pfrost said: I would want an iron clad return policy on this one, I think. It is always hard to know for sure with out handling the item, but I see a couple or 3 red flags right off the bat. First, the front looks to have a casting flaw on the left wing. Could be a ding from normal wear and tear, but the rest of the wing seems pretty good. The shield has a sort of look of casting as well. The back has similar casting flaws, and the patina looks like it was put on chemically. It has that sort of matt-grayish/black finish, and it shows evidence that someone tried to buff the high spots (notice how much brighter it is on the edges and tips of the star). That always makes me think of someone trying to artificially age a wing. On the other hand, the hallmark and pin look good, from what I can see. The only way to be sure would be to either handle it in person or get exact measurements and compare it to known good Josten wings. As cast wings will be slightly smaller than the die struck wings. Patrick
uscollector Posted August 31, 2010 #22 Posted August 31, 2010 Excellent information and analysis. Thanks.
pfrost Posted August 31, 2010 #23 Posted August 31, 2010 Excellent information and analysis. Thanks. Here is my Josten Command Pilot wing. Notice that the hallmark is fine and not so deeply and unevenly punched into the wing. Also not the finer details in the wing and the wreath of my wing that are lacking in the one Russ posted. Again, it is always hard to know for sure, but.... :thumbdown: Also, almost all the Josten's I have seen have a silver finish or "frosting" type patina. Note that the finish doesn't wear off evenly and you can see residue of that finish on almost all the wings--except for the one that Russ posted..
CliffP Posted August 31, 2010 #24 Posted August 31, 2010 I see there's a Josten hallmarked Command Pilot wing currently being offered on ebay (#350389154044). It has a pin-back on the reverse, rather than the more common clutch-back. Is it authentic? Russ, There are some dealers on eBay we should avoid no matter what... and that one is no exception. Check out some of his other listings, he is well known to sell... lots-of-bad-stuff !! Sorry for the pun but I could not resist it.
Paul S Posted September 1, 2010 #25 Posted September 1, 2010 I'm increasingly of the opinion that the Josten Sr. Pilot and Command pilot wings that we see with some frequency may be post WWII wings made during the early years of the USAF before the alpha-numeric marking system was instituted. The nail heads they used push me toward that notion. Unless I'm forgetting some others, I don't recall seeing the nail heads used on earlier wings. For me, the give away on the wing Russ references is that it is stated as being 2-15/16". I've found only the LeVelle patterns and cast copies to be under 3". Below is an attributed wing I got from a pilot who flew in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. So, unless he got the wing from someone else, he must have picked it up after WWII since he wasn't qualified to wear it then. It looks very much like the Josten CP wings to my eye.
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