Josten of Owatonna, MN: examples and patterns

[will m.]

Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

 

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

 

My opinions only...................

 

Will

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

John,

 

The Josten wings I have encountered over the years include ~

 

Command Pilot

Senior Pilot

Pilot

WASP

Balloon Pilot

Senior Balloon Pilot

Balloon Observer

Observer

 

Hope this helps you ~ Dave

[pfrost]

Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

 

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

 

My opinions only...................

 

Will

Howedy Will,

 

I will have humbly disagree with the statement that the combat observer is not right. Josten used a couple of different patterns for the wings--the WASP wings, for example, are not the same pattern as the pilot series. It is true, it seems that 100% of all the senior and command pilot wings and the WASP wings have the hallmark on the back of the wing and at an angle, I have also seen 100% legit wings (some are shown on this thread) that have the hallmark in the center.

 

Also, the pattern used for the observer wings is not strictly a NS Meyer pattern. I believe a number of firms used a very similar pattern, as you will see this wing with and with out a hallmark--I have a few in my collection that I wouldn't attribute to NS Meyer. IMHO, the one Russ shows is NOT a NS Meyer restrike. I have handled that wing as well, and would give it a 100% :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

On the other hand, you are correct that not a few of the NS Meyer restrikes (both with and without hallmarks and even some with fantasy hallmarks) have been used to make fakes--most notably the 1919 Pilot/observer wings, the vast majority of Ebay-offered TO wings, and the balloon and airship series. We have had a fair number of discussions on that in the past.

 

Best regards

 

Patrick

[CliffP]

In my short time of collecting...............

 

My opinions only...................

 

Will

I have to smile at Will's modesty. There are not many gentlemen who read this forum that can honestly claim they have spent over 50 years diligently collecting military aviation wing badges but he can... if only he wanted too. Speaking on his behalf, he knows his stuff and for many years has taught me a great deal.

 

Thanks Will, :thumbsup:

 

Cliff

[rustywings]

Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

 

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

 

My opinions only...................

 

Will

 

Hello Will,

Thank you for stirring my collecting juices a bit. You've peaked my interest with several of your statements and I'm hoping you'll elaborate a bit with some examples. I searched through numerous books and a couple of websites but cannot find an example of Meyer's made Observers badge identical to the earlier depicted Josten made Observers badge. Here's a comparison shot of a WWII era NS Meyer-made Observers badge and the Josten example. Was there another Meyer's pattern used for Combat Observer?

 

Russ

[rustywings]

Back of the Meyer and Josten made badges.

[rustywings]

I think the Josten pattern is more closely related to the Oberver's badge made by the American Emblem Company.

[rustywings]

Josten compared to AECO.

[pfrost]

Josten compared to AECO.

 

Here is an observer wing that is very close to the Josten one shown by Russ. It has the same pin and catch as well, it seems.

 

Not hallmarked, but not an NS Meyer-made wing IMHO. An unknown maker, but as I said, more similar to the Josten wing than not.

[pfrost]

Here is an observer wing that is very close to the Josten one shown by Russ. It has the same pin and catch as well, it seems.

 

Not hallmarked, but not an NS Meyer-made wing IMHO. An unknown maker, but as I said, more similar to the Josten wing than not.

 

Not an observer wing, but an early NS Meyer made pilot wing in the similar pattern as the Josten wing. But, note the pin and catch (and especially the hinge area) are different from the Meyer and Josten wings. The Meyer wing's pins tend to be thinner compared to the thick Josten pins.

[rustywings]

Will, with all respect, are you saying this Josten made Pilot badge was made in the 1980's by Meyer's because the hallmark is stamped in the center? Could I sway your opinion Sir if I told you I bought this badge in the late 1960's? Here's a Meyer/Josten comparison.

[rustywings]

Back of the Meyer/Josten Pilot badges.

[mshaw]

Back of the Meyer/Josten Pilot badges.

 

Russ:

 

I have a pinback Josten pilot wing in my collection EXACTLY like your's, including Josten mark in the middle. It's a heavy badge like all Josten badges. I am certain that is is authentic. If it is not authentic, nothing in my collection is authentic.

[Paul S]

Just to add a bit more fuel to this fire...here is a comparison of a marked Josten pilot wing with one of the Slick backs. To my eye, they are the same front die.

[Paul S]

And furthermore, the problems with giving too much credence to an attribution of a given wing just because it is found in a certain box notwithstanding, I've seen several of these same design Slick back wings offered from original estates that were still in a box and labeled in the same manner as that used by Balfour during WWII.

[John Cooper]

Dave......thats the complete list...........no Combat Observer, no Tech Observer, nor any of the Lettered or other Specialty wings. The Combat Observer shown is one of those that appeared in the early 80s(?)....it is in fact a very well known NS Meyer pattern badge. The Tech Obs is of the same vein, once more a known Meyer pattern badge marked to Josten..........not correct.

 

In my short time of collecting I never once saw a Josten wing badge marked in the center....always lower right corner and usually at an angle. And never deeply pressed........some reserve was used in marking these badges.

 

My opinions only...................

 

Will

 

Will Thanks for posting your thoughts and experience on this interesting topic. I hope you continue to share your experience with the rest of us here in the wing section. Your comments seems to have sparked and interesting discussion.

 

I hope to have the time Friday to take some photos of the pattern in question and that of the meyer pattern of which I am lucky enough to have a few variations which may help further this discussion.

 

Regards to all.

John

[John Cooper]

Hello Will,

Thank you for stirring my collecting juices a bit. You've peaked my interest with several of your statements and I'm hoping you'll elaborate a bit with some examples. I searched through numerous books and a couple of websites but cannot find an example of Meyer's made Observers badge identical to the earlier depicted Josten made Observers badge. Here's a comparison shot of a WWII era NS Meyer-made Observers badge and the Josten example. Was there another Meyer's pattern used for Combat Observer?

 

Russ

 

Russ after seeing your comparison shot I wanted to do one as well to dd some more photos to the discussion. I have placed the Meyer wings at the top with the pattern similar to Josten's (maybe the same?) but unmarked.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[John Cooper]

Here is the reverse shot.

 

[John Cooper]

Now just to add one more similar Meyer style pattern into the mix...

 

[John Cooper]

Reverse...

 

[rustywings]

Hello Will,

 

Now that you're active again in the wing section of the Forum, I thought I'd bump this old thread to the top for your review...and possible response?

 

Russ

[wartimecollectables.com]

Center wing mark is fine, but note the style of the marking.

 

[littlewilly]

Hi Guys!

 

I am not a collector of WWII wings. My only area of interest is WWI. I have had in my possession for many years a really nice WWII Josten senior pilot wing. I always presumed that it was manufactured in my home town, Princeton, Illinois, where a Josten plant existed for many years. I recently wrote the Josten's headquarters in Minneapolis, Minn. and asked them if their old Princeton facility was a point of manufacture of these during WWII. They could not answer that question, but referred me to their MTM subsidiary in the old plant at Princeton for help. My sister-in-law worked for the Josten plant for several years before it's conversion to MTM, where she continues working to this day. I asked her for help in solving the mystery, which she and a few friends at the plant were more than happy to help with the investigation. Just heard from her today. Sadly, there was no information anywhere in their files or photos to show that these wings were made in Princeton. Would any of you wing collectors have any information on where these things were made during the war? I was planning on donating the wing to the local museum if it was from Princeton, as they do not have an example in their military displays. Thanking you all in advance for your help. MHJ

[pfrost]

This may give you some insight?

 

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/jostens-inc-history/

[littlewilly]

pfrost:

 

Thanks for the history info. I now know a lot more about the Josten company than I had before. MHJ

[pfrost]

Josten is an interesting maker of wings. I am not sure if they produced wings prior to WWII, but the certainly made them during the war. Perhaps the holy grail of Josten wings is the W.A.S.P. wing. The seemed to have made pilot, senior pilot, command pilot (although I suspect that these were made post war), observer, and balloon pilot and observer wings.

 

They also hallmarked their wings in a couple of ways, either on the right side of the wing or in the center of the wing. I believe that both types of hallmarks were used during WWII. They also used either pin back or clutch back.

 

The pilot wings are rather rare and are almost marked in the center with the hallmark.

 

The senior pilot wings appear both as pin back and clutch back, with the hallmark showing up as either the center or on the wing (I suspect, but have not much proof) that most of the pin back senior pilot wings are from WWII and the clutch back wings are later.

 

The command pilot wing is rather common and is always clutch back and has the hallmark on the wing (I suspect, and have some proof in biographical wings) that the command pilots are from after WWII and maybe even after the KW.

 

From what I can recall, observer wings seem to have been always (or pretty much always) been marked in the middle and have pin backs. The balloon wings (which are super rare) and the WASP wings (which were both clearly made during WWII) are always clutch back and marked on the side. There also seems to have been a Josten Balloon observer wing that is pin back and with the center mark.

 

(see this thread for a good view of the various Josten wings: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/85523-josten-wings-question/?hl=%2Bjosten+%2Bwings

 

To my knowledge, other then the list above (pilot s/p, c/p, WASP, observer, balloon pilot, s/balloon pilot, balloon observer) Josten wings were never made for the other USAAF ratings or USN ratings.

 

Here is my triplet set of Josten wings. I believe that the pilot and senior pilot or WWII and the command pilot is post WWII.