Provenance...how airtight must it be?

[tarbridge]

We all get on these threads and we all have ideas on how things work and opinions on how they should work.There is a lot of back and forth between us...with all the different forum members, we usually still end amicable. Saying that, most people on the whole, probably retain their beginning thoughts... the spirit of the forum is interact and learn when possible.

Rarely would a letter of Provenance or a COA influence my handling of a item...but I know there are examples that would or could.

As a retrospective , I sold a Purple Heart two weeks ago...I relayed all known information pertaining to it.The customer requested or depends on how you look at it...required, a letterhead from me to include the verbal communication.

So, I had to write a letter telling where I purchased,chain of known ownership and the authenticity of the medal, documents and engraving. I reckon you call that a COA...

[trenchbuff]

We all get on these threads and we all have ideas on how things work and opinions on how they should work.There is a lot of back and forth between us...with all the different forum members, we usually still end amicable. Saying that, most people on the whole, probably retain their beginning thoughts... the spirit of the forum is interact and learn when possible.

Rarely would a letter of Provenance or a COA influence my handling of a item...but I know there are examples that would or could.

As a retrospective , I sold a Purple Heart two weeks ago...I relayed all known information pertaining to it.The customer requested or depends on how you look at it...required, a letterhead from me to include the verbal communication.

So, I had to write a letter telling where I purchased,chain of known ownership and the authenticity of the medal, documents and engraving. I reckon you call that a COA...

 

Very true. Collecting is usual not a team sport and we can be a hard headed bunch.

[Wharfmaster]

After WW2, gigantic war surplus stores were everywhere, selling an endless supply of nearly everything used during WW1 and WW2.

 

All this stuff, just about everything people now avidly collect, in new or near new condition was available to the general public for very reasonable prices. It was considered just camping gear.

 

When I was a kid in the 1960s, thrift stores were full of WW1 and WW2 uniforms with patches and insignia, helmets and you name it.

 

Buy the item, not the story.

 

 

Wharf

[38Driver]

I was speaking for myself and no one else's interpretation...If you are out of your knowledge or skill level and need somebody else to write you a note to verify or guarantee...you are at their mercy...skill or knowledge level...Personally, a COA has little effect on my conducting of business...I put hardly any credence on them.If you read my other posts...I have been voicing my sarcasm concerning the offer of COA's.If I had a choice between a COA or a hand wrote Veterans letter, I would take the Veterans letter.If the Veterans letter was as dubious as a vague COA...then little credence to either.I have heard many incorrect Veteran remembered stories also.Time can be tough on memories

 

Once again...

 

My definition...

Provenance (from the French provenir, "to come from"), the journey of an item as known by the current owner to their satisfaction and acceptance.This is to include all matters of information collection pertaining to said provenance. Provenance can be transferred to other individuals if they are in agreement of conveyed provenance, that is also to their satisfaction and acceptance.

I think in the end we agree that we all have to reach our own conclusions based on the information in front of us

[manayunkman]

There are concrete facts about the provenance of an item that are not subject to opinion.

 

If you have an original WW2 period Imperial M3 knife it's provenance is that it came from the Imperial factory.

 

That's a fact with no room for opinion.

 

Now if this knife is associated with a paratrooper (which would increase it's value) your going to need some kind of provenance.

 

Is the seller's word provenance ?

 

Not to me, I will need more proof than that and that's where provenance comes into play.

 

If there is no additional provenance then all you have is a WW2 period knife from Imperial.

 

Now what kind of provenance would be needed to prove that this knife belonged to a paratrooper ?

 

You tell me and just facts please.

 

So far we have heard mostly opinions, generalizations and definitions in this thread.

 

In a previous post I gave 3 examples of provenance or the lack of.

 

No one has even given an opinion about what I've said.

 

So what would air tight provenance be for the paratrooper fighting knife ?

 

What would air tight provenance be for the Vietnam clothing that started this thread ?

 

Forgive me if I take this a little personally (a character flaw) but provenance is my thing, I love it.

[tarbridge]

There are concrete facts about the provenance of an item that are not subject to opinion.

 

If you have an original WW2 period Imperial M3 knife it's provenance is that it came from the Imperial factory.

 

That's a fact with no room for opinion.

 

Now if this knife is associated with a paratrooper (which would increase it's value) your going to need some kind of provenance.

 

Is the seller's word provenance ?

 

Not to me, I will need more proof than that and that's where provenance comes into play.

 

If there is no additional provenance then all you have is a WW2 period knife from Imperial.

 

Now what kind of provenance would be needed to prove that this knife belonged to a paratrooper ?

 

You tell me and just facts please.

 

So far we have heard mostly opinions, generalizations and definitions in this thread.

 

In a previous post I gave 3 examples of provenance or the lack of.

 

No one has even given an opinion about what I've said.

 

So what would air tight provenance be for the paratrooper fighting knife ?

 

What would air tight provenance be for the Vietnam clothing that started this thread ?

 

Forgive me if I take this a little personally (a character flaw) but provenance is my thing, I love it.

Manny...you did such a good job...we had no questions...

[Blu1989]

Provenance for me is any piece of infomation I can get linking an item to a veteran whether it be his service number, laundry number, or even a name on some aspect of the item. Most of my US gear is named so researching them is a little bit easier on my end. As for all of my captured items none of them have any paperwork but I got them directly from vets and their families and I tend to believe them first and do additional research later. Now I know when my items do go out for sale the stories won't matter as there is no paperwork for anything but there are a couple of items that can be sold that are unique to a certain area and timeframe and even without paperwork can be sold as a war bring back. Case in point I have a French short rifle captured by a marine in 1967 in Vietnam and sent home. Normally without paperwork it's just another beat up rifle but its model, year of manufacture, and known fact that the model in question was never imported into the US proves that it did come out of Vietnam. Also my dad's bring backs from Vietnam have no paperwork for any of them (though he did put either his name or his initials on most of them) yet if in the distant future they come up for sale the seller can't say that they were brought home by a member of the 1st Marine Division in Vietnam.

[manayunkman]

Tarbridge...I guess I deserved that answer....

 

But seriously the best way to explain the concept of provenance and collecting militaria is to give illustrations.

[manayunkman]

Here's a coincidence, an Imperial M3 knife attributed to a paratrooper posted just a few minutes ago.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/267517-us-m3-imperial-fighting-knife-issued-to-513th-pir-officer-operation-varsity/

[cutiger83]

When an item is posted on the forum with no background history and is attributed to a veteran, members sometimes question the authenticity. It is not that we don’t believe the OP but we are curious about the history of the item. I have noticed lately that the OP gets either upset or defensive at anyone questioning the item. While many members are long time collectors who know each other, many members don’t have the long history with each other. We don’t know that the OP has been collecting for many years and has many items originally obtained directly from veterans. Some of these items may have been in your collection for years. Some may be a recent acquisition. Some may be from an estate sale. Some may be from e-bay. Without even the smallest of background information, we as readers have absolutely no idea how it was obtained.

 

While the OP does not have to give proof of authenticity or state how it was obtained, why not add a sentence such as “I have had this in the collection for many years” or “I have been collecting x type of items for many years” or something to at least let the readers who don’t know you get a little information? With no background information at all on an item being attributed to a famous person or a well known area of history, people who do not know the OP are generally going to ask questions.

 

...Kat

[tarbridge]

When an item is posted on the forum with no background history and is attributed to a veteran, members sometimes question the authenticity. It is not that we dont believe the OP but we are curious about the history of the item. I have noticed lately that the OP gets either upset or defensive at anyone questioning the item. While many members are long time collectors who know each other, many members dont have the long history with each other. We dont know that the OP has been collecting for many years and has many items originally obtained directly from veterans. Some of these items may have been in your collection for years. Some may be a recent acquisition. Some may be from an estate sale. Some may be from e-bay. Without even the smallest of background information, we as readers have absolutely no idea how it was obtained.

 

While the OP does not have to give proof of authenticity or state how it was obtained, why not add a sentence such as I have had this in the collection for many years or I have been collecting x type of items for many years or something to at least let the readers who dont know you get a little information? With no background information at all on an item being attributed to a famous person or a well known area of history, people who do not know the OP are generally going to ask questions.

 

...Kat

At times, when asking a question you have to ask with diplomacy, or you can have a insulted party responding. I know with all this talk about COA's and Provenance, for me,it adds up to this...integrity. I'm lucky to still be able to conduct business with folks still involved in our hobby and business...who display that attribute.That goes a long way...call me old fashioned...

[cutiger83]

At times, when asking a question you have to ask with diplomacy, or you can have a insulted party responding.

 

I understand and agree but sometimes words typed on a computer do not have the voice inflection so the post can be taken the wrong way. The person posting the question does not always view the question the same way as the person receiving the question. It is the same scenario as has been posted in this thread. The person asking for provenance on an item for sale may not view the provenance the same as the person selling the item. While someone asking how an item is known to be from a certain veteran may at first seem like they are questioning the authenticity, it could be that they are just curious. Rather than immediately go towards the negative, why not reread the question posted and steer towards the positive? Or better yet, just provide the tiniest bit of information and cut them off at the pass. Why post something attributed to a very well known group, not provide any background information, then get upset when someone asks a question about the item?

 

No matter how much we reread and edit our posts, someone is ALWAYS going to read it differently than we meant. That is human nature at its' finest.

[tarbridge]

 

I understand and agree but sometimes words typed on a computer do not have the voice inflection so the post can be taken the wrong way. The person posting the question does not always view the question the same way as the person receiving the question. It is the same scenario as has been posted in this thread. The person asking for provenance on an item for sale may not view the provenance the same as the person selling the item. While someone asking how an item is known to be from a certain veteran may at first seem like they are questioning the authenticity, it could be that they are just curious. Rather than immediately go towards the negative, why not reread the question posted and steer towards the positive? Or better yet, just provide the tiniest bit of information and cut them off at the pass. Why post something attributed to a very well known group, not provide any background information, then get upset when someone asks a question about the item?

 

No matter how much we reread and edit our posts, someone is ALWAYS going to read it differently than we meant. That is human nature at its' finest.

A pm (personal message) stops much of the lack of voice inflection or the incorrect presentation of a possible insulting or probing question. That allows a person the opportunity to respond without feeling as if they have been put in a precarious spot.Then ,they can respond to your request and not feel accused.I would think most people would appreciate being treated with some courtesy...this is not a scenario...

[cutiger83]

A pm (personal message) stops much of the lack of voice inflection or the incorrect presentation of a possible insulting or probing question. That allows a person the opportunity to respond without feeling as if they have been put in a precarious spot.Then ,they can respond to your request and not feel accused.I would think most people would appreciate being treated with some courtesy...this is not a scenario...

 

I understand and agree. This would be correct in some scenarios but so much is learned by reading posts, I learn by reading people's responses. For instance, I saw a response Ron posted today about information from a veteran. He said the detail posted was something normally only received when talking directly to a veteran. I did not realize this until Ron pointed it out. I thought his response was very informative and great. If this had been a conversation between two people via a PM, I would never have learned how to view that detail as being part of the provenance. Ron taught me something new today.

[Brig]

 

True and the mere definition of archaeology explains the point that I have been discussing. These historical artifacts help to tell the history but the real history is the people.

 

"the study of human history and prehistory through the excavation of sites and the analysis of artifacts and other physical remains.

So by your thought process, history only began with the appearance of humans? Everything prior to that predates history?

 

The human factor is but one element, it's referred to as human history. History itself is all encompassing

 

 

As for topic of provenance...I have a couple of uniforms that bounced around collections for years and years...no idea how many or the first one to acquire it after the vet...but came with a stack of papers, and the handwriting on the name tags match handwriting in the man's official file. To me, that in indisputable evidence

 

Each collector has his own decision of what constitutes provenance. For me, I want the item to speak for itself, not 'could be/maybe/quite possibly' situations. Too many collectors try to connect the dots and make the stars align. While I may buy items in those situations, I'm not going to pay added value for "provenance"

[tarbridge]

 

I understand and agree. This would be correct in some scenarios but so much is learned by reading posts, I learn by reading people's responses. For instance, I saw a response Ron posted today about information from a veteran. He said the detail posted was something normally only received when talking directly to a veteran. I did not realize this until Ron pointed it out. I thought his response was very informative and great. If this had been a conversation between two people via a PM, I would never have learned how to view that detail as being part of the provenance. Ron taught me something new today.

If a member posts and item and says it belongs to a noted figure related to a historic event and another member asks him to give more information, such as how did he obtain it...circumstances...etc.That is better to go to a pm...then the op can add the information without scrutiny.

We all learn most everyday on the forum...information and knowledge is everywhere.But, as long as there is no obvious fraud committed...the op is not required to post anymore information than he is comfortable.

[cutiger83]

I don't want to get back on that tangent but since it was brought up again:

 

So by the definition of many people on here… a helmet is history… a pair of wings is history…a tank is history…a Trojan horse is history….

 

Please explain the following to me:

 

How is a helmet with no name history?

How is a pair of flight wings with no name history?

How is a tank history?

How is the Trojan horse history?

 

Why was the helmet worn? Who made the helmets?

Why were the wings worn? Who invented the airplane?

Why were tanks developed? When were they developed?

Why was the Trojan horse invented and needed during the Trojan War?

 

These items help TELL history but how ARE they themselves history? I am not at all trying to be confrontational but please explain to me how these individual items themselves are history?

[cutiger83]

If a member posts and item and says it belongs to a noted figure related to a historic event and another member asks him to give more information, such as how did he obtain it...circumstances...etc.That is better to go to a pm...then the op can add the information without scrutiny.

We all learn most everyday on the forum...information and knowledge is everywhere.But, as long as there is no obvious fraud committed...the op is not required to post anymore information than he is comfortable.

 

Ok...

[tarbridge]

I don't want to get back on that tangent but since it was brought up again:

 

So by the definition of many people on here a helmet is history a pair of wings is historya tank is historya Trojan horse is history.

 

Please explain the following to me:

 

How is a helmet with no name history?

How is a pair of flight wings with no name history?

How is a tank history?

How is the Trojan horse history?

 

Why was the helmet worn? Who made the helmets?

Why were the wings worn? Who invented the airplane?

Why were tanks developed? When were they developed?

Why was the Trojan horse invented and needed during the Trojan War?

 

These items help TELL history but how ARE they themselves history? I am not at all trying to be confrontational but please explain to me how these individual items themselves are history?

It is great that this is how you see it...that is your opinion..mine differs...it takes all the parts to make the whole...most every item has a cause and effect and a place in history ...in your history world it starts and ends with Adam...Eve...the snake or the apple do not count.

I do not think you are confrontational but you have a belief and an opinion...I applaud you for that.

I also have a opinion and beliefs...I applaud me for that.

[Wharfmaster]

Named-identified-issued militaria is history. Everything else is just war surplus.

 

 

 

Wharf

[cutiger83]

It is great that this is how you see it...that is your opinion..mine differs...it takes all the parts to make the whole...most every item has a cause and effect and a place in history ...in your history world it starts and ends with Adam...Eve...the snake or the apple do not count.

I do not think you are confrontational but you have a belief and an opinion...I applaud you for that.

I also have a opinion and beliefs...I applaud me for that.

 

No. My world does not begin and end with Adam and Eve. Someone mentioned archaeology. None of us were around when dinosaurs walked this earth. The fossils themselves tell the story of the dinosaur but IMO a fossil itself is not the history of the dinosaurs.

 

We are certainly all individuals with our own beliefs and idiosyncrasies. Such is the crazy world we live in.

[Bugme]

 

Hard to say on this one. I think it could be argued on both sides of the equation. However, having the word of a retired minister doesn't push it over the edge unless it was a military Chaplain's item. I have known a few ministers who were not always the most up and up on dealings.

Speaking as a Pastor and former Prison Chaplain I find this statement very broad and unfair. This would be equivalent to questioning if women should be in the military since a few of them have dropped the ball in physical agility. Do you get the point Kat?

 

By the way, I hate threads about provenance since there is never an answer anyone can agree on by the time the discussion comes to an end... usually when we lock it. This is because collectors seem to think chain of custody is not provenance but a photo of the soldier is.

[cutiger83]

Speaking as a Pastor and former Prison Chaplain I find this statement very broad and unfair. This would be equivalent to questioning if women should be in the military since a few of them have dropped the ball in physical agility. Do you get the point Kat?

 

 

 

This is one of those instances where no matter how many times I reread my post, it was taken the wrong way.

 

My grandfather was a minister so this was in no way meant to be demeaning to ministers. . I know some wonderful ministers including many from my church. I was trying not to be broad and to limit it by saying a few ministers. . Not sure how my statement was a broad statement against ministers but if you read it that way then I apologize.

[tarbridge]

Speaking as a Pastor and former Prison Chaplain I find this statement very broad and unfair. This would be equivalent to questioning if women should be in the military since a few of them have dropped the ball in physical agility. Do you get the point Kat?

 

By the way, I hate threads about provenance since there is never an answer anyone can agree on by the time the discussion comes to an end... usually when we lock it. This is because collectors seem to think chain of custody is not provenance but a photo of the soldier is.

So true...

[manayunkman]

The trouble with military items is that there is no one answer to the question.

 

It has to be taken on a case by case basis.

 

For example proving an item is part of a story is different than proving an item belonged to somebody.

 

A helmet was used in Normandy and you have a picture or pictures to prove it, so the picture is the provenance.

 

A uniform belongs to an individual and the name and laundry number are on the lining of the jacket.

 

The name and number are the provenance.

 

An item comes from a certain respected, educated, discerning collector and they gave you a notarized statement so your certain it is a period piece.

 

The person and statement are provenance.

 

If someone shows you a plain shirt and says it is from General Patton that is not provenance.

 

If someone is selling a good helmet and says it's from Iwo Jima their word is not provenance no matter how much integrity they have.

 

Even if they are telling the truth that is not provenance.

 

You believe them, that is not provenance.

 

You paid 3 times what the helmet is worth because of the story they told you, that is not provenance but it is foolish.

 

Anyone have anything to ad or subtract agree or disagree ?