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Posted

As far as I’m aware, the modified wings for the first class of 1944 was AMICO, not Luxemberg, and it doesn’t look like this.  What is this?

6EB86A80-6E62-44BE-807E-DEC5485C66B1.jpeg

rathbonemuseum.com
Posted

I saw this, too, @Noelle. It is a real Luxenberg 2nd pattern observer badge, manufactured for Lux by Blackinton. Perhaps post the back of the wing as well for future reference. As for the diamond/lozenge, yes. Not anything in line with known versions of WASP graduation badges, either numbered class wings or standard diamond wing. So either a uniquely custom piece or more likely a piece made to entice a collector. 

Insigina Hunter
Posted

I've been looking at this wing as well. The observer base of the wing is legit (with a replacement pin on the back). The "wasp" fitting on the front is a mystery though. The only one I've seen like this will be hard to pull the trigger for a substantial amount without any provenance.

 

Here is the backside

Screenshot_20220912-074846_Chrome.jpg

Posted

So can anyone tell if the base wing is a legit Luxenberg wing or is it a JoeW special?  Without clear photos and knowing what the span of the wing is, I am suspicious of its authenticity above and beyond its basic oddity as an Observer-based WASP lozenge wing.

Basic Rifleman
Posted

Here's another...but still blurry photo of the reverse. 

s-l1600 (2).jpg

Posted

Apologies for not getting back to this sooner. This past week has been hellish.

 

The seller’s description is:

Quote

 

USAAF World War II Army Air Force Women’s Air Service Pilot WASP Pilot Wing by Luxenberg. 

 

Measures 3” wide by 13/16” tall. The front shows a diamond in the center of the of the observer wing flanked by a wing on each side. The reverse is maker marked ‘Luxenberg New York Sterling’. Has a thin horizontal pin back with a locking catch. Two-piece sterling silver construction. Nicely toned. Excellent condition. 

 

 

As of right now, it’s over $300.

9A72218D-C5CF-4E27-B7D4-757D0406FFC6.jpeg

Posted
On 9/14/2022 at 12:22 PM, 5thwingmarty said:

JoeW special

This made me laugh.  The background, please?

Posted

There is a well know maker of wing copies who has been banned from this forum.  His actual name is also banned from the forum so there are several nicknames that have been bestowed upon him.  I use JoeW for him as it is nice and short.  Others refer to him as Voldemort. 

Posted
8 hours ago, Noelle said:

Apologies for not getting back to this sooner. This past week has been hellish.

 

The seller’s description is:

 

As of right now, it’s over $300.

9A72218D-C5CF-4E27-B7D4-757D0406FFC6.jpeg

it really does'nt fit well

Posted
10 hours ago, rathbonemuseum.com said:

@5thwingmartyis correct. Thanks Marty for pointing out that the base wing, which is meant to be a Blackinton manufactured wing for Luxenberg tailors is actually a reproduction. And as we said, there was never a WASP wing made on that base. Here is what a real base wing looks like: 

http://ww2wings.com/wings/usaaf/observer/luxaafobserver.shtml

 

Is there anything ebayers don’t try to pass off as legit?  I couldn’t fathom not doing my best to research before dropping hundreds or more on a pin and taking an intentional calculated risk (and it payed off with my WASP wings), yet it seems like there are a lot of people too willing to bid without a second thought.  More money than brains.

Posted
8 hours ago, Noelle said:

Is there anything ebayers don’t try to pass off as legit?  I couldn’t fathom not doing my best to research before dropping hundreds or more on a pin and taking an intentional calculated risk (and it payed off with my WASP wings), yet it seems like there are a lot of people too willing to bid without a second thought.  More money than brains.

i better hold off on that bid and so should others

Posted
8 hours ago, Noelle said:

Is there anything ebayers don’t try to pass off as legit?  I couldn’t fathom not doing my best to research before dropping hundreds or more on a pin and taking an intentional calculated risk (and it payed off with my WASP wings), yet it seems like there are a lot of people too willing to bid without a second thought.  More money than brains.


I think there is a ripple effect, as times they are a-changin’, where facts don’t much matter anymore.  Now it’s what someone believes, or just wants to be the case.  
 

And the collective “community” has caused some of this, as we’ve watched fakes saturate the hobby, with a seeming reluctance to police our own.

 

Now it’s so-called “expert” versus “expert”, so everything can be real while nothing is real.  Immediate gratification, and everybody deserves a trophy - this is that.  
 

Add this, to a constantly-shrinking generational circle of collectors, and it’ll be interesting to see where the hobby is at in 5-10 years.

Posted

To quote a line from the movie The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend." The line between real and fake has certainly gotten blurry.

Insigina Hunter
Posted

I'm Still not settled with this one. The wing base is a lesser seen strike though I have seen a few of them around on legitimate named wings. The pin and catch were replaced on it for sure and the front diamond is a new variation I have not seen. The seller offered me this wing for 650 before it ended and I passed. If I was 100% sure on this wing or he accepted my counter offer, I would of taken it.

 

Not too long ago collectors claimed lux didn't make a Para badge. Alot of people's mind were changed when the named example surfaced and sold for 650+ last year. This may be another example of this. The only reason I want this wing to not be real is because I didn't win it and don't think I'll ever see another one come up. But that doesn't mean it is fake (though the collector in me would feel better for missing out on this if it were).

 

The base wing is a real observer IMHO but the replaced pin and uncertainty of the WASP customization left too many questions for me (a diehard luxenberg collector) to spend that much on it.

 

 

Posted

To me, I see almost nothing that makes me think this is a good wing.  I believe the base is a HeWhoShallNotBeNamed production/casting to make a "museum quality" reproduction of a 100% fantasy piece.  The patina looks like its from a can (that dull grey), and it looks like someone added the lozenge (Shield of Athena) in a garage.

 

The 1943 WASP classes used their individual class wings. Then in 1944, the classes were issued the Josten-made wing (except for the first class of 1944 (W1))  that apparently  used a converted 2 inch AMICO wing until the supply of Josten wings arrived.  By December of 1944, the WASPs were disbanded, so it seems that only about 10 classes of WASPS (about 500-800 women in total) graduated from flight school and would have received their WASP wings in 1944.  I don't know for sure, but I suspect the pilots from 1943 who originally had their class wings would have also received the Shield of Athena Lozenge wings as well.  At the end of the WASP program, there were about 1500-2000 WASPs in total (I should look up the exact number).  The collectors idea that pilots and cadets and young ne-er do wells were flitting about buying up bedazzling wings to adorn themselves is probably more projection than reality. These women were under a great deal of scrutiny and I have never seen anything that suggests that they were going to go off the reservation to get their own insignia as they saw fit.  I am pretty sure that Ms Cochoran would not have been amused.

 

There is a great deal of information about the WASPs that is available, and NO where (out side of some of the more dodgy early/pre internet "reference books" like Russ Huff's work), are there any solid examples of NON JOSTEN WASP wings (leaving aside the AMICO version). Much less a Luxenberg example.  In fact, even the class wings are all pretty well sourced from the original women cadets.  Basically, during WWII I have yet to see that there is ANY variation in the wings that these women wore.  EIther is was a specific class wing or the AMICO wing or the JOSTEN wing.  That is pretty much it--so the idea that a one off wing is showing up NOW.... nope!

 

So, now, comes along a "hand made" unicorn wing that would not normally pass muster if it didn't have the lozenge.. Frankly, I am not buying it as either a good base wing or a legit WASP wing.  I could accept that maybe this was some reunion wing bought by a WASP or a friend or a WASP in the 70's.  But ....  If the price is about 650$, then that is about a fraction of what a REAL Josten wing sells for and about 2X what a real Luxenberg observer wing would be worth.  The math doesn't add up.

 

But this is just my thinking process.

 

 

Insigina Hunter
Posted

I made a few calls and found another one buried in someone's collection. 

 

You can still see some of the silver finish in the deeper recesses both front and back of this one...

 

Another interesting note for consideration. JoeW still scours ebay and will report / have pulled down any illegitimate Luxenberg pieces for copyright infringement. He did not report this piece (or the jump wings from last year). He does not have a "museum quality" wasp wing available on any of his sights as well.

 

 

Screenshot_20220920-111659_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20220920-111652_Chrome.jpg

 

This wing base is seen on other Modified lux wings. One being shown here with a bomb attached to the front from 5thwingmarty post#238...

Screenshot_20220921-102609_Chrome.jpg.ba7bba466f47e532b5215cd5948e35a3.jpg

A lot of people here saying the base of this wasp wing is no good are also on this post stating what I nice example the bomber is on the same exact base wing...🤔

Posted

In my first post in this thread I asked if anyone could tell from the given photos if it was a real base wing or a JoeW copy, and I questioned whether it was authentic.  The Bombardier wing I had in hand had clearly struck hallmark and sterling marks, no casting pits, and was the full span an original die-struck wing should be.  I have also had a wing or two that were made from cast copies of Luxenberg (Blackinton pattern) base wings, and their markings were soft, they had casting pits and their span was short due to shrinkage from the casting process.  Blurry photos of purported Luxenberg wings make me highly suspicious of their authenticity.

 

If someone wants to sell me a Luxenberg wing via the internet, they are going to have to provide extremely clear photos and document the span of the wing or I am going to pass.  For $20 I would have bought this funky WASP wing, but for the many hundreds of dollars that it sold for I passed.

 

Also, I just looked at his 1903 website and he still offers copies of this base observer wing and all of his various WASP copies.  I don't know if his site lists every type of wing he has ever made, but your argument that this wing is (or may be) legitimate based on Joe not having had the listing pulled down doesn't work if he made it himself.  He offers other fantasy pieces like the Juarez Navigator wings, so him potentially offering a wing like this one is not out of the realm of possibilities.

 

You are free to believe this is some kind of legitimate WASP wing, but I am going to continue to have my doubts.

Posted
1 hour ago, 5thwingmarty said:

In my first post in this thread I asked if anyone could tell from the given photos if it was a real base wing or a JoeW copy, and I questioned whether it was authentic.  The Bombardier wing I had in hand had clearly struck hallmark and sterling marks, no casting pits, and was the full span an original die-struck wing should be.  I have also had a wing or two that were made from cast copies of Luxenberg (Blackinton pattern) base wings, and their markings were soft, they had casting pits and their span was short due to shrinkage from the casting process.  Blurry photos of purported Luxenberg wings make me highly suspicious of their authenticity.

 

If someone wants to sell me a Luxenberg wing via the internet, they are going to have to provide extremely clear photos and document the span of the wing or I am going to pass.  For $20 I would have bought this funky WASP wing, but for the many hundreds of dollars that it sold for I passed.

 

Also, I just looked at his 1903 website and he still offers copies of this base observer wing and all of his various WASP copies.  I don't know if his site lists every type of wing he has ever made, but your argument that this wing is (or may be) legitimate based on Joe not having had the listing pulled down doesn't work if he made it himself.  He offers other fantasy pieces like the Juarez Navigator wings, so him potentially offering a wing like this one is not out of the realm of possibilities.

 

You are free to believe this is some kind of legitimate WASP wing, but I am going to continue to have my doubts.

RIGHT ON !

Posted

I was looking about for my old Charles Fitzsimmons reference book.  In his second edition, he included examples of a full series of Lux/Blackinton wings, a number of which were pure fantasy.  I heard that he had approached Blackinton and secured himself a bunch of restrike wings (similar to the NS Meyer restrikes of the 1980's).  I want to say that he illustrated a Lux/Blackinton Lozenge wing in that edition, but I am not 100% sure I am recalling things correctly.

 

Mr Fitzsimmons was one of those "Hey, this wing is in my book, so you know its perfectly legit" type of guy.  He used to sell stuff via the Trading post.  As I said, I cannot recall if the WASP wing was one of his, but I do think it was.  As for LordJoe, who knows what he is doing on the internet....  Somethings are probably best left unexplored, I always say.

 

That being said, I am not trying to be the wing police and I am in no way an expert.  You guys know much more than I will ever know, but for what its worth, I probably would never consider this for my collection (yeah, big deal, that and a few bucks will get you some coffee.... lol).

 

There are some real scholars on WASPs and their insignia.  I would probably rely on that work, and less on what HeWhoShallNotBeNamed is doing.

 

Just my two cents.  If it is a good base wing, I am still leaning towards a private reunion wing... Luxenberg was selling uniform stuff well into the 60's and 70's IIRC, so just because it has the name "Luxenberg" on it doesn't mean its WWII vintage.

 

 

rathbonemuseum.com
Posted
32 minutes ago, pfrost said:

That being said, I am not trying to be the wing police and I am in no way an expert.  You guys know much more than I will ever know, but for what its worth, I probably would never consider this for my collection (yeah, big deal, that and a few bucks will get you some coffee.... lol).

 

Same here buddy, same here.

Insigina Hunter
Posted

I received the 2nd wasp wing shown here (I did not win the ebay auction). Once in my hand I did not like this wing as much as in the pictures and do not believe it is a real lux wing as many of you said.

 

What I liked about it:

Silver finish still in the crevices and the base wing itself is not the same as the current 1903 pieces (more on this later)

 

What I don't like now that's its in hand:

The weight is too light and it is slightly shorter in length than my other luxenberg wings (two big tells). Was also not a fan of the pin on the back. Along with a couple others

 

With all the bads piling up I finally reached out to thou who shall not be named and here is his reply confirming this is not an original lux:Screenshot_20220923-085735_Gmail.jpg.95f0a4aa3073afc363eb7783fee5d55a.jpg

 

Which leads to the reason why the base wing is not an example from 1903 but from old blackinton dies.

 

After all that a lesson learned, the price of admission: return shipping costs on me. Here is the wing with some pictures I took.

20220922_192848.jpg.99ef560397a74d88f96a2122cc86152c.jpg

20220922_192858.jpg.b1ba7cea6ea5d6b3ba4e18ba69a209f6.jpg

Posted

The softness of the stamped mfg info, and soft/dull edges (not die cut) are clear indicators its a reproduction. 

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I'll preface with the fact that I am not a wing person, ID'd uniform groupings are my search area.  So I leave the wing discussions to my more knowledgeable and experienced Forum colleagues.  However thought I'd enter this into the discussion.  First let me say that the wing shown does not have a gold tone, it was the lighting in one of my rooms. And second sorry for the fuzziness of the photo of the back of the wing, I was leaning over another mannequin when taking it.  This wing is on the Santiago Blue uniform of a WASP.  It was acquired directly from the WASP and in fact she is still with us and just recently celebrated her 100th birthday.  The wing on the jacket is a US Gunner's wing with the WASP lozenge soldered on.  She says this is the wing she wore and is original to the jacket.  Thought it might be of interest to some here.

(Sorry 3rd photo is sideways but I can't seem to correct it.)

IMG_0868.jpg.c123f8d743940fa27e6273ea4ef12245.jpgIMG_0870.jpg.4db8de044d54c4d802cde2b9615a936f.jpg

FB7B799F-67A1-4473-A404-FAD3BE34A403_1_201_a.jpeg

5thwingmarty
Posted

Do you know what class she graduated in?  It would be interesting to know if she was originally issued a Josten wing or one of the earlier wings.  My guess is at some point she lost her original wing and it was replaced with this one, and it was so long ago she forgot that had happened.  

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