M2HB "Ma Deuce"

[Sabrejet]

The venerable .50 Cal Browning is the longest serving small arm in the US inventory....if it ain't broke, don't fix it certainly applies to the "Ma Deuce"! My question is this: are there still WW2 vintage .50 cals in the inventory...albeit re-furbished, possibly more than once...or are they all new-builds? Thanks.

 

 

[hbtcoveralls]

There most certainly are. I was at a public display for the local national guard unit last year and they had a .50 on display. I checked and it was made by General Motors Fridgedair division during WWII. There are probably plenty more too since there isn't much to wear out on an M-2 that can't be replaced.

Tom Bowers

[Sabrejet]

There most certainly are. I was at a public display for the local national guard unit last year and they had a .50 on display. I checked and it was made by General Motors Fridgedair division during WWII. There are probably plenty more too since there isn't much to wear out on an M-2 that can't be replaced.

Tom Bowers

 

Is that so? I figured there might be. Thanks Tom!

[David Minton]

I'm no expert, but when considering what is a refurbishment, one needs to consider what is the serialized receiver, and what is a replaceable part. With some of the crew served .30 cal machine guns, the serialized part is a side plate (I believe right side for M1919), while everything else is a part. Short of a catastrophic failure, I don't know if the serialized side plate wears out, and thus, the weapon could last a long time.

[Sabrejet]

Do you mean like the old sweeping brush which someone claims to have had for 25 years and in that time it has only had three new heads and two replacement handles?!

[RedLegGI]

Yes they are absolutely still in the inventory. Most of the ones we had in Alaska had all kinds of manufactures dating back to WWII. When we went down to Fort Polk for training, we also had our heavy weapons fixed by a traveling crew from Rock Island Arsenal. Over a few days I befriended some of the armorers and one day one of them said "hey I've got something special to show you". He walked me over to a table where they had 3 50's sitting, he turned one on its side to show me a 3 digit serial #. IIRC it was in the 300's so a very early, long serving weapon.

[Combat Diver]

All rebuilt as needed. Didn't help that during the last 10 yrs of conflict we needed more machine guns since that was our primary vehicle weapon system (can't fire tank/APC main gun without a general's approval) In 03' my unit took out over 250ea M1911A1s for service in Iraq. My son was still using them there in 10'. In 08' the M1911 I had was a mismatched .45. Slide was a WWII 1911A1 Ithaca but the frame was a 1911 dated from 1916.

[Sabrejet]

Thanks for the input fellers...very interesting!

[etienne]

I learned to dissamble and reassemble the M2 on a late ww2 one ... it was in 1995 but I doubt it was still a shooter.

 

The M2s installed on the light armored vehicles of the combat units were new-builds ... and shooting with these guns was a heck of an experience

 

PS : I was in the french army, just to clarify !

[Johan Willaert]

Most if not all .50Cal MG in Belgian Army inventory are WW2 made receivers and internal parts..

Most have had new barrels and have been fitted with a Quick Change Barrel (QCB) system which allows for faster changing without having to adjust headspace...

[TRR]

I will have to do some digging for facts for it may just be a myth, but it was always rumored in my unit the Army had not ordered a new M2 since WW2 because there were so many many in the inventory. 2008 was the first time I or even my leadership had seen a new dated (post-ww2 era) manufactured M2, it was received in country as a replacement for one that had been burned and only about 4 months old.

[4IDUB]

You coined it here Sabrejet,,,,,,if it ain't broke...don't fix it.

[Linedoggie]

In My company when we mobbed for OIF in 2004 we had 10 M2HB's

 

1 was a "New" gun I want to say SACO?

 

the other 9 were old as dirt and we suspect rebuilt from M2 Watercooled from the overstamped markings and since all the tools were muzzle gland wrenches and Packing gland wrenches, and this huge double ended wrench with a circular fitting in the center.

 

the guns had less than 50% finish and the older style rear sight with the optical sight brackets. Most of the spade grips and cocking handles were wooden instead of plastic, and none of the barrels wer post war stellite lined even for the new gun.

 

it took me weeks to get them all up and running reliably, had one break a Accelerator stop on the range. and 2 were dropped (by the same NCO) from the top of a M113 breaking the rear sights and spade grips

[Austringer]

Back in 2004, I had a chance to fly over to Fort Stewart in a CH-47 and watch our local nat guard unit (mech inf) do their Table 8s. The unit had bradleys and a few M1 Abrams. I got the chance to ride around on one of the Abrams and while up top, I took at look at the 50, it was an AC Spark Plug (ww2) It was in decent shape, pretty cool to see the old girls still at work.

[Brig]

My Ma Deuce in Iraq in 2005 was dated 1943 and refurbished in 68.

 

They added a safety feature a few years ago

[Neuron]

The tooling would have to be new wouldn't it with modern manufacturing processes now employed. I would think they would need a contract to build a fairly large amount to get costs down and maybe sell internationally might help.I didn't know they made new ones.Learn sumpin new every day here.

[El Bibliotecario]

Even though I had more experience carrying the various components than firing the weapon, I think the .50 machine gun is the caterpiller's spats. But I would think that with all those milled parts that today it must cost practically as much to make the weapon as the vehicle upon which it is mounted. From that standpoint, I'm surprised there hasn't been an attempt to design a replacement that can be made without upteen hours of machining.

[Brig]

We don't replace, we refurbish!

[Combat Diver]

The Army and Marines did try a replacement on the M60 series tank. It was the M85 machine gun and was nothing but trouble. M2 HB was restandardized on the next tank series the M1.

 

 

CD

[El Bibliotecario]

I know about the M85 and its troubles--but it appears to have been made with the same expensive methods as the M2 .50. Did the M85 incorperate stampings, casting, etc?

 

My question is, did anyone ever designed a .50 machine gun that could be made for considerably less expense? An example of what I mean is the inexpensive M3 submachine gun vs. the Thompson gun.

[brad k]

I went to germany for an annual tng. with the army reserves around 2000, some of our guys were working in the small arms depot opening crates of them that were packed up and banded in the early '70's, their job was to replace any barrels that were not chrome lined and the non chrome lined ones got scrapped, I got a chance to go over there one day and they showed me two dumpsters full of torch cut recievers being scrapped, I don't know if they were unservicable or just considered excess at that time, all the ones I saw them working on were from ww2.

[Niner Alpha]

Back in 2005, while taking a tour with a reunion group, we were shown the M2 range at Ft. Benning. It was part of the training for infantry to get familiar with the 50 cal that we were told was still the best heavy machine gun the Army had in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Niner Alpha]

Here is another photo of the NCO giving the lecture.

[Linedoggie]

I know about the M85 and its troubles--but it appears to have been made with the same expensive methods as the M2 .50. Did the M85 incorperate stampings, casting, etc?

 

My question is, did anyone ever designed a .50 machine gun that could be made for considerably less expense? An example of what I mean is the inexpensive M3 submachine gun vs. the Thompson gun.

The "Dover Devil" in the 70's

 

 

 

It had the ability to chamber up to 20mm and also by changing barrel and Bolt to use Soviet 12.7X107. It used 2 belts 1 on each side and could switch from Ball belt to a API belt with the flick of a lever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was supposed to have an investment cast trunnion with sheet steel dust cover over most of the internals. IIRC CIS Singapore actually developed this further and issued it.

[Cobrahistorian]

I just used a pair of M2A1s last week. Yes, the venerable M2HB has gotten an upgrade, starting in 2011! The upgrade consists of a completely new barrel assembly that has a threaded flash suppressor and a quick-release carry handle. One of the advantages of the new barrel is that headspace and timing is no-longer necessary, it's built into the quick release barrel assembly!

Of course, using it with the old-style blank adapter is a bit more difficult, and if you're not issued the proper spacer, it doesn't work (as we found out last week...)