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Question for Patton sabers


pony soldier

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pony soldier

Mitch:

 

Thanks for the serial numbers. The more I can gather in , the better possibility of answering a number of questions on the M1913 Patton. Like your note I to am trying to put information together on the Patton's that I would like to get out to the collecting fraternity at large. It is a long neglected weapon that does have considerable history.

 

I also saw you are most interested in the AEF cavalry uniforms and possibily accoutrements the cavalry would have used. From what I iknow the US cavalry units played a minor role in the war. I know the 2nd cavalry made it and I believe a portion of another regiment also. They did see some limited action, mostly providing MP service and courier duty along with some scouting. In your research would like to know if you come up with any units that were involved as to pictures and hopefully showing the usage of the M1913 Patton saber.

 

Thanks again for the serial numbers

 

Ken Andrews

Pony Soldier

Oregon

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Ken,

 

The 2nd , 3rd, 6th and 15th went over, however companies of the 2nd and one company of the 3rd made up a provisional squadron that saw mounted combat in France. The rest of the regt and units were mainly doing remount and veterinary work.

I do have first hand accounts via morning reports and letters that confirm all the regts were still doing mounted work with saber and pistol while in France. My only question remains is did they bring them home? Not there yet but I will get there. I have photographs of the 6th on the docks at newpoert news carrying saddle bags and equipment but no sabers, however they would be "racked" just like the weapons but I will be checking manifests.

 

The LF&C pattons with the serial numbers have me intriqued, is there any difinitive information on why..how many and what numbers?

I am working on another serial numbered one, I seem to be on a "patton" kick these days.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mitch Fenton

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pony soldier

Mitch:

 

As to the LF&C sabers I have two letters concerning the serial number problem. LF&C wrote the Ordnance dept. with a request to be allowed to stop serial numbering. The said too many blades were breaking as they applied the numbers after tempering?? Seeing as how Springfield did not seem to have such a problem with numbers of any amount makes me wonder what procedures they were using and what quality of steel. Bottom line is due to wartime expediency? they were given permission to cease. Serial numbers on LF&C's stop at 4000!!

 

Thanks for the info on the regiments, sounds like you are really going to do a great indepth study if I am reading between the lines correctly.

 

Ken Andrews

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  • 2 years later...

Ken,

I have 2 Springfields in collection. The first is dated 1914 ser no. 11216 with 3rd model scabbard. The second is also dated 1914 ser. no. 14748 with a tent peg scabbard.

Best, George.

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Hello Oscarduece and Cavsaddle:

 

Thanks for sending the Patton saber serial numbers. They are appreciated as I continue to record data. We know there are some 37,000 serial numbers for Patton's from Springfield and if I can get enough of them, some questions can at least be partially answered or reasonably projected. On the tent pole scabbard variety which is assumed to be fairly rare in numbers surviving I am coming to the belief that there may be more "out there" than is usually thought. More numbers will reveal that.

 

As for serial numbers please keep them coming. If I can live long enough to gather in 10% of them, then good projections can be made on this historical piece.

 

Pony Soldier

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Bonjour pony soldier.

 

My little contribution to your study. The scabbard is not intended for tent.

 

solcarlus

 

post-241-0-44422300-1424270051.jpg

 

post-241-0-54177700-1424270075.jpg

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My two:

 

1914/Springfield Arsenal/13484/browned steel (so-called officer) scabbard

 

1914/Springfield Arsenal/15516/khaki canvas not painted, no tent pole tip

 

Hope that helps.

 

Chris

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Tim, bheskett and cwnorma:

 

Thanks to all three of you for posting the info. It just shows what pleasure there is in collecting and the group of people who are in the various fields. Even so small a thing are just gathering numbers. I continue to find numbers and appreciate any help I get in this quest. Eventually it will prove of value to the fraternity for any answers it may bring forth.

 

As I can I will post photos of Patton knives with numbers, made from cutdown sabers These are from my collection that I have found over the last 20 years.

 

Pony Soldier

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Ok, now you guys have piqued my interest.

 

What are these "type 1, 2, & 3" scabbards? Does that come from a reference I don't have?

 

I guess that "type 1" is the tent-pole style. But what differentiates a type 2 from a type 3?

 

What do I look for to determine what type?

 

Chris

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Chris:

 

A quick answer to your question on Patton scabbards. If you can find a copy Burton Kellerstedts book, "Swords and sabers of Springfield Armory", in it you will find some clear pictures of the scabbard varieties. He has some discussion on the reasons and the photos say it all.

 

Best,

 

Pony Soldier

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Ok, now you guys have piqued my interest.

 

What are these "type 1, 2, & 3" scabbards? Does that come from a reference I don't have?

 

I guess that "type 1" is the tent-pole style. But what differentiates a type 2 from a type 3?

 

What do I look for to determine what type?

 

Chris

post-1047-0-42715300-1424642752.jpg

 

Type 1: Tent peg.

 

Type 2: Tent peg ground off.

 

Type 3: Never had a tent peg.

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I don't have burt's book. Does it list the metal officers/parade (?) scabbard as type 4?

 

No. Kellerstedt doesn't describe the scabbards by "type", it's one of those terms that have just evolved among collectors. Easier to say, "Type 2" than "scabbard with the tent peg ground off"...

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Rgr. It make sense for limited variations but it is kind of silly for garands etc when the ref material is sometimes not considered worthy by some collectors. Thx

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All:

 

You could even sandwich in another "type 4" between the "2" and "3" with another variety for collectors. When the tent peg was ground off you can find some that still retain a "nubbin" about 1/8 to 1/4 inch of projection still remaining.

 

Good hunting.

 

Pony Soldier

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  • 10 months later...

Still collecting serial number data? There is a 1918 LF&C M1913 saber with serial number 3617 listed on ebay. Unfortunately it lacks a scabbard and is in a bit of rough condition.

post-160923-0-16348000-1452967105.jpgpost-160923-0-69479800-1452967140.jpgpost-160923-0-60334800-1452967162.jpg

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The Patton sword is detailed in:

Swords and Sabers of the United States Army 1867-1918; The New Regulation Models

By Dusan. P. Farrington.

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