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Tim

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Everything posted by Tim

  1. Thanks for the info. I was pulling some chains to see what was out there and did not want to give this knife an unsubstantiated background. This is way out of my collecting area. Now to find a copy of Best of Coles. The book will cost more than the knife which was $40. New on Amazon $442.78. I would appreciate if a copy of the page could be posted.
  2. I am a bit disappointed. As of June 14, 142 members have examined the Moss Commando/Butcher, but with nary a comment. This is the one place I would expect erudite opinion and additional information about it. Of course, I may now have the freedom to create a back story for this extremely rare (Oh how I hate that word.) and unknown until recently unearthed from the depths of eBay, Commando/Butcher knife. So, here goes. The Moss Cutlery Co., New York, U.S.A. was a small manufacturer of high quality, commercial meat processing knives and a part of S.I.M.C.O. A few of its employees entered the armed forces and were sent these knives. I think we are looking at a production of less than ten. It seems unlikely that they were offered to the public or the PX system. Unlike the ground down S.I.M.C.O. sharpening steel “daggers”, this is a very usable knife. Is that a plausible story to create collector interest? It sure looks better than some of the home-made stuff I see offered as “theater made” knives etc. Come on fellow members tell me something about this cool piece. I made the sheath.
  3. I had originally placed this interesting knife below on a thread about a S.I.M.C.O. dagger made from a sharping steel. It was not really noticed there. So, I am giving this piece its own thread and hope I receive some profound or otherwise comments. This Knife was made by Moss Cutlery Co., New York, which was owned by the huge Simmons Hardware Co, St. louis, MO. It is marked with the SIMCO shield logo. I am unable to find out much about Moss Cutlery Co. There are some commercial Butcher knives on eBay, but nothing else. The Moss Cutlery Co., New York made knives for the commercial/butcher trade market. On the grip of the knife is a shield logo with SIMCO on it. Let me qualify this, but I think this means Simmons Company as in Simmons Hardware Co. They were notorious for buying small companies making high quality products and selling them under KEEN KUTTER or other names. However, a commercial product could be sold under the original manufacturer’s name, especially if that name had a reputation for quality and, as in this case, a logo was added. The above is conjecture and guess work and I as my wife constantly points out, I could be completely wrong. Google has not been helpful here. Let us examine this butcher/commando knife in detail. First, about me, my military experience is limited to JROTC, where I did not receive any knife training. My son received more in the Boy Scouts. I do have considerable metal manufacturing experience. I have a lot of edged weapons and as soon as I picked it up, I noticed the near perfect balance. It naturally points and almost floats in your hand. It only weighs 7 ½ oz. Maybe a good butcher knife should have a natural point, I do not know, because my butchering experience is the same as my fighting experience. I think Doug Marcaida would approve. Let us examine the components, assembly, and finish. The cross guard is made from 60 gauge by 1 ¼ of whatever steel they had around; it could be blade stock. Then using a simple die, they formed the “T”. The blade slot was ground at a grinding wheel by hand. The blade blank was pierced out 11 gauge coil stock and then sent to preparation for heat treating. After heat treat and cleaning, grinding may have started but in this case, I think the walnut grips were attached and the finger groves put in. The outside contour could now be hand cut and ground. The cross guard is placed in a simple fixture and the blade was pushed in until it met the grip. Then two heavy punch marks locked the crossguard and blade together. Check the pictures. With the grip and guard attached hand grind and polishing would be easy. The trade name “MOSS CUTLERY CO. N.Y. MADE in U.S.A.” and the SIMCO shield logo between them are lightly photo etched on the blade and are difficult to photograph. The logo is also found stamped on the wood grip. It is just as likely that a finished knife could have been used to make this. I have look at hundreds of butcher knives on eBay and none have finger groves. It may lack the some of the utility factors of the Kabar type. But I think it could help break up the dirt for that fox hole as well as any other knife. The kabar blades will not bend, this blade will, but you would have to put considerable effort into breaking it. How much abuse does a butcher knife take? Another factor is the weight of 7 ½ oz. How much does a Kabar weigh? Here is another feature from the butcher knife, the blade curves up. It is about 1/8th of an inch high above a straight line coming off the top of the grip. The blade is not double edged. The back has dull edge until it gets to about one inch from the point. The cost of making one these should be half of a Kabar. Think of this: coil stock, no forging. Less expensive tooling costs. Minimal hand assembly and finishing. No leather ovals to chase around. (Whose idea was that?) I have noticed these “SIMCO” daggers made from sharpening steels; they could break up the foxhole dirt, but little else. I think this is a real SIMCO fighting knife that was to be submitted to the Army for testing or it could be the result of a couple of guys fooling around in the Moss toolroom at lunch time. I still think Doug Marcaida could keal with it.
  4. The posted is not a good reproduction. The enlisted below looks good, but I would have to see the back.
  5. This Knife was made by Moss Cutlery Co., New York, which was owned by the huge Simmons Hardware Co, St. louis, MO. It is marked with the SIMCO shield logo. I am unable to find out much about Moss Cutlery Co. There are some commercial Butcher knives on eBay, but nothing else. The Moss Cutlery Co., New York made knives for the commercial/butcher trade market. On the grip of the knife is a shield logo with SIMCO on it. Let me qualify this, but I think this means Simmons Company as in Simmons Hardware Co. They were notorious for buying small companies making high quality products and selling them under KEEN KUTTER or other names. However, a commercial product could be sold under the original manufacturer’s name, especially if that name had a reputation for quality and, as in this case, a logo was added. The above is conjecture and guess work and I as my wife constantly points out, I could be completely wrong. Google has not been helpful here. Let us examine this butcher/commando knife in detail. First, about me, my military experience is limited to JROTC, where I did not receive any knife training. My son received more in the Boy Scouts. I do have considerable metal manufacturing experience. I have a lot of edged weapons and as soon as I picked it up, I noticed the near perfect balance. It naturally points and almost floats in your hand. It only weighs 7 ½ oz. Maybe a good butcher knife should have a natural point, I do not know, because my butchering experience is the same as my fighting experience. I think Doug Marcaida would approve. Let us examine the components, assembly, and finish. The cross guard is made from 60 gauge by 1 ¼ of whatever steel they had around; it could be blade stock. Then using a simple die, they formed the “T”. The blade slot was ground at a grinding wheel by hand. The blade blank was pierced out 11 gauge coil stock and then sent to preparation for heat treating. After heat treat and cleaning, grinding may have started but in this case, I think the walnut grips were attached and the finger groves put in. The outside contour could now be hand cut and ground. The cross guard is placed in a simple fixture and the blade was pushed in until it met the grip. Then two heavy punch marks locked the crossguard and blade together. Check the pictures. With the grip and guard attached hand grind and polishing would be easy. The trade name “MOSS CUTLERY CO. N.Y. MADE in U.S.A.” and the SIMCO shield logo between them are lightly photo etched on the blade and are difficult to photograph. The logo is also found stamped on the wood grip. It is just as likely that a finished knife could have been used to make this. I have look at hundreds of butcher knives on eBay and none have finger groves. It may lack the some of the utility factors of the Kabar type. But I think it could help break up the dirt for that fox hole as well as any other knife. The kabar blades will not bend, this blade will, but you would have to put considerable effort into breaking it. How much abuse does a butcher knife take? Another factor is the weight of 7 ½ oz. How much does a Kabar weigh? Here is another feature from the butcher knife, the blade curves up. It is about 1/8th of an inch high above a straight line coming off the top of the grip. The blade is not double edged. The back has dull edge until it gets to about one inch from the point. The cost of making one these should be half of a Kabar. Think of this: coil stock, no forging. Less expensive tooling costs. Minimal hand assembly and finishing. No leather ovals to chase around. (Whose idea was that?) I have noticed these “SIMCO” daggers made from sharpening steels; they could break up the foxhole dirt, but little else. I think this is a real SIMCO fighting knife that was to be submitted to the Army for testing or it could be the result of a couple of guys fooling around in the Moss toolroom at lunch time. I still think Doug Marcaida could keal with it.
  6. It is a Cadet M1874 belt plate made by Robbins, Addleboro MA, ca 1900. Robbin made several versions for different retailers. This link will be of interest. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116956-The-Post-American-Civil-War-Eagle-belt-plate
  7. I have two of them. The other needs to be properly photographed.
  8. This sword was made in Germany by Carl Eickhorn, Solingen Germany for the importer/distributor N.S. Meyer, New York. Based on the Trademarks it dates to the 1950's. Before WWII Ames, M.C. Lilley and later Lilley-Ames made NCOs for only Horstmann, the USMC supplier. Most collectors do not know that before WWII there were two levels of NCO sword, one for sergeants and the other for staff sergeants and above. Wouldn't that make an interesting thread.
  9. Tim

    What is it?

    The experts for this British style sword are at www.swordforum.com. Some additional photos will help.
  10. Ca 1930. Hard to find with that mark, usually private labeled.
  11. This a more accurate, edited version of the above The moderator may want to change it. That symbol is was, according to The American Fraternal Sword Book (page140), used by the Patriotic Sons of America. They were a xenophobic society. The sword itself was made by Ames Sword Co. around 1900, but is not shown in their catalog and so it was a special order. You will see that symbol on their camp charters shown at:http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/fraternalism/posa.htm There were lot of paramilitary groups that had special swords.The KKK in particular. xen·o·pho·bic zenəˈfōbik,ˌzēnəˈfōbik/ adjective adjective: xenophobic having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.
  12. That symbol is was, according to The American Fraternal Sword Book, used by the Patriotic Sons of America. They were a xenophobic society. The sword itself was made by Ames Sword Co. around 1900, but is not shown in their catalog and so it was a special order. There were lot of paramilitary groups that had special swords.The KKK in particular. xen·o·pho·bic zenəˈfōbik,ˌzēnəˈfōbik/ adjective adjective: xenophobic having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.
  13. Before we get too far along, you should check this link. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?107728-The-last-USMC-NCO-sword&highlight=USMC+nco www.swordforum.com specializes in swords. Bent and Bush was a retailer that could not actually manufacture swords, so it sold them private labeled. The USMC was small and the HQ was closer to Philadelphia; where it could have swords assembled to suit at Horstmann. I have come to the conclusion that all USMC swords were made in the US until 1942, but the usually contain German blades etc. This link goes into this. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116701-The-pre-WWII-USMC-officers-swords Wikipedia Has good basic information and even describes the Senior NCO sword. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_noncommissioned_officer%27s_sword
  14. Very interesting. An excessive amount of blades were made by Weyersberg (note the kings-head mark on the racasso), Solingen, Germany for Horstmann during the American Civil War. The M.C. Lilley Co., later called Lilley-Ames, ended up with this huge, sword blade inventory and used them for all sorts of things causing confusion for collectors. I have a M1902 with a USN M1852 blade.
  15. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?116956-The-Post-American-Civil-War-Eagle-belt-plate This topic is being discussed here and there is a lot of information. The below are from my collection. Quiz: Which ones could have been used by a military school?
  16. Tim

    M1902 Sword Inquiry

    This is nice pre 1908, made by Ames Sword Co., Chicopee MA and retailed by Hirsch. The blade has the Ames type II blade etching pattern found on the later Springfield M1902's. These are a more robust version of the 02; note the heavy branches on the nickle alloy hilt. The thin/weak Lilley/Springfield type are often found bent. The condition can be improved and hilt can be easily disassembled for cleaning.
  17. If you wish to examine 50 plus pre WWI and WWII 02s, contact me. The 02 above was made by Carl Eickhorn soon after WWII. handtite@roadrunner.com
  18. I would suggest you get a copy of Swords and Sabers of the United States Army 1867-1918 by Dusan P. Farrington. Mowbray Publishing, ISBN; 1-931464-760-4. Keep in mind they are a relatively light weight saber and I have never seen any interest in this data. I must have 50 plus pre- WWI and WWII 02's around here and you are free to look at them.
  19. It is possible to make this sword even more ugly.
  20. I was made by the Ames Sword Co., Chicopee MA and has the type I etching pattern which is the same as the second pattern on the Springfield M1902's. Reed was the retailer.
  21. For reference: I am adding this good quality, reproduction of a Civil War period Plate/buckle. Note how the back of the wreath has been "cored" to prevent shrinkage and use less metal. This coring is usually done with a plain ring. I think this is an investment or lost wax process casting. A makers mark has been added to prevent faking.
  22. I am reconsidering my original premise; the above USN souvenir buckles maybe real, but until something is published, I would not buy one. This buckle is now listed and I think it is a period souvenir. But the quality is such that I doubt it was made of USS Maine salvaged brass. But, it does not say what it is made of. I do not think it is made of brass, maybe a die-cast pot metal with a goldish finish that was applied before the letters were stamped on..
  23. Factors to consider: 1. The top three were on eBay at the same time, listed by different sellers. Starting at $9.99 to 699.99 2.The are a poor quality sand casting in the two piece "Civil War " pattern. 3.The post 1911 regulation pattern would be the 1905 type. Pictured. I could be wrong, but when it seems to good to true...
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