NEED ID FOR S.F ERDL JACKET

[beogam]

DEAR COLLECTORS

 

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS JACKET

 

THANKS

 

REGARDS JEROME

[SARGE]

Jerome,

 

Has the collar been reversed due to wear or is the insignia sewn only on the underside of the collar?

[beogam]

Jerome,

 

Has the collar been reversed due to wear or is the insignia sewn only on the underside of the collar?

 

SARGE,

 

the insignia sewn only on the underside of the collar

a guy propose me this jacket i dont see it in real maybe is fake

 

thanks a lot for your interrest and your help

 

BEST REGARDS JEROME

[QED4]

I have herd of the rank and BOS being sewn on the underside of the collar so snipers could not tell who the officers were. Just how prevalent this was or if it was really done at all I can't tell you, this is the first one I have actually seen. The jacket and all of the insignia are pretty common, the fact that they are all together in this way on one jacket makes it a little unique but who knows who sewed than on. It looks like some of the stitching is loose, if you could pull the insignia back a little to see if the material behind them is faded like the rest of the jacket it would be a good indication. If the material is faded it is likely the insignia were added later.

[Spike]

Looking at were the CIB was I can see that the ERDL is the same fade as the rest of the jacket. Also, the way the stitching is reminds of the way that patches are sewn on uniforms in Korea. This could be a legit uniform but the collar insignia sewn under the collar and backwards to boot is weird.

[beogam]

DEAR COLLECTORS

 

THANKS YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR INTERREST AND YOUR HELP

 

PS. DEAR SPIKE WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE DUCK HUNTER BERET(in beogam pattern topic)

HAS YOU SEEN BEFORE THIS TYPE OF BERET ? THANKS JEROME

[101combatvet]

Well, I spent a few years in SF and I never saw or heard of such a thing. It really makes no sense to me at all that this would be done. SF works in small groups of men and everyone on your team knew your rank, often a sterile uniform was used, or pin on rank that could be removed if there was the need.

[Polygon]

Never heard of insignia being sewn in that manner underneath the collar, although I do find the cross stitching interesting (reminds me of some WWII A-Class/Ike uniforms). Also, it appears as if the insignia might be theatre made?

[beogam]

I GET THIS JACKET NEXT WEEK I POST YOU MORE CLEARS PICS

 

REGARDS JEROME

[USMCRECON]

Having worn much of this stuff in country, I'm not personally that much of a collector of Vietnam era stuff. I've got a couple sea bags full of it in the storage shed but I can certainly understand the interest among other collectors. My point being that I really don't know that much about collectables from this era other than the sort of stuff that I used or came in contact with.

 

It is odd to me, though, about the rank and BOS insignia on this jacket. I suppose some sort of argument could possibly be made for having them on the underside of the collar, though I've never heard of such a thing; sewing them on the opposite sides is all the more odd. However, when it came to bush uniforms, anything was possible and personal preference played a much larger role than the reg book.

 

That said, though, the lack of darker material where the one patch was removed is quite telling to me. Fading occurred when laundered and that could have been more universal. However, the worst culpret was the sun and areas under patches did not get exposed so, if the patches had been on the uniform when it was worn, the area under them should definitely be darker that that exposed to the sun. I had a "Dunn's Raiders" patch on the pocket opposite the EGA on one of my jungle jackets that I wore strictly in the company area. When it finally became unservicable, I had to remove the patch before surveying it and the area under the patch was considerably darker then the rest of the jacket.

 

In Recon, I don't remember anyone ever going to the bush with rank on their uniform. Pin-on Marine collar rank was required while on the combat base, at the PX, etc. but not in the field. Almost all of us had a bush uniform and boots that we wore just in the field. We were allowed to take extensive liberties with what we wore in the field and one recon team could be seen with guys wearing duck hunter camo, ERDL Camo in either US or Vietnamese style (when we could get it), the old 100% cotton tiger stripes (in both US or Vietnamese patterns and colors), standard jungle utilities, or any combo of the preceding. One guy even had an old FFL camo shirt/jacket that he wore until it rotted off him. Same with bush hats....almost anything was allowed.

 

The one constant (and pretty strictly enforced in my unit) was that no one took their ID card to the field (we had a separate Geneva Convention card then that went to the field with us). Similarly, no patches, rank insignia, or labels, of any kind were taken to the field.

[gwb123]

I have looked at this, and looked at this again. It is about the darndest thing I have seen in years of collecting and documenting uniforms from this period.

 

My starting point, and the one I keep coming back to, is that it is just too wierd to be a fake.

 

If someone was going to put together a jacket with Asian made patches and try to pass it off as "real", they would usually go to great pains to make it convincing. Or at least to make it match the expectations of their potential buyer. The last thing they would want to do is make a glaring goof that would make someone immediately question the item. And the removed CIB only reinforces this. A fake artist would have replaced the patch.

 

So we are brought back to the conclusion that somehow this item might be real. So what is the explanation for this odd use of insignia?

 

Somewhere back in my Army career I remember talking to an Infantry officer who had served a tour in Korea in the late 1970's. One of his rotated duties was to patrol near the DMZ. I remember him telling me about wearing his rank insignia under his collar so he would not draw the attention of North Korean observers or snipers. (Stuff happened back then.) All this time I had assumed he had been talking about pin on insignia that could easily be shifted from one side to another.

 

Given that, I suppose the next logical step in convenience would be just to sew the darn things on. The whole purpose of sewn on insignia is to make it so you do not have to fool around with pinning things on before stepping out in front of the troops first thing in the morning. Hard to do in the dark....

 

A lot of Korean made insignia is made by hand guided sewing machine, but there were also some that were hand made. Many of these are very hard to tell apart from the Vietnam made insignia. But I have seen a lot of Korean made subdued insignia with a green border stitch rather than black. A positive of this uniform is they look like they all could have come from the same shop.

 

I don't think this was worn in Vietnam. Most of the SF clandestine missions over there seem to have been done in sterile fatigues, or with a bare minimum such as a name tape without rank or unit.

 

This is an odd item, but I like it. Keep it in your collection and maybe someday you will have the full explanation. You have plenty of evidence to research: Name, Rank, and branch. You might just well find out something about the wearer.

[beogam]

Having worn much of this stuff in country, I'm not personally that much of a collector of Vietnam era stuff. I've got a couple sea bags full of it in the storage shed but I can certainly understand the interest among other collectors. My point being that I really don't know that much about collectables from this era other than the sort of stuff that I used or came in contact with.

 

It is odd to me, though, about the rank and BOS insignia on this jacket. I suppose some sort of argument could possibly be made for having them on the underside of the collar, though I've never heard of such a thing; sewing them on the opposite sides is all the more odd. However, when it came to bush uniforms, anything was possible and personal preference played a much larger role than the reg book.

 

That said, though, the lack of darker material where the one patch was removed is quite telling to me. Fading occurred when laundered and that could have been more universal. However, the worst culpret was the sun and areas under patches did not get exposed so, if the patches had been on the uniform when it was worn, the area under them should definitely be darker that that exposed to the sun. I had a "Dunn's Raiders" patch on the pocket opposite the EGA on one of my jungle jackets that I wore strictly in the company area. When it finally became unservicable, I had to remove the patch before surveying it and the area under the patch was considerably darker then the rest of the jacket.

 

In Recon, I don't remember anyone ever going to the bush with rank on their uniform. Pin-on Marine collar rank was required while on the combat base, at the PX, etc. but not in the field. Almost all of us had a bush uniform and boots that we wore just in the field. We were allowed to take extensive liberties with what we wore in the field and one recon team could be seen with guys wearing duck hunter camo, ERDL Camo in either US or Vietnamese style (when we could get it), the old 100% cotton tiger stripes (in both US or Vietnamese patterns and colors), standard jungle utilities, or any combo of the preceding. One guy even had an old FFL camo shirt/jacket that he wore until it rotted off him. Same with bush hats....almost anything was allowed.

 

The one constant (and pretty strictly enforced in my unit) was that no one took their ID card to the field (we had a separate Geneva Convention card then that went to the field with us). Similarly, no patches, rank insignia, or labels, of any kind were taken to the field.

 

 

HI BILL

 

THANKS YOU VERY MUCH AGAIN FOR YOUR PERSONNAL EXPERIENCE

THE NEXT WEEK I POST SOME PICS OF MARINES ERDL TRUNKS MADE

IN OKINAWA (in my other topic "swimming trunks tiger stripe)COULD YOU

TELL ME IF YOU SEE BEFORE THIS TYPE OF TRUNKS

 

REGARDS JEROME

[beogam]

I have looked at this, and looked at this again. It is about the darndest thing I have seen in years of collecting and documenting uniforms from this period.

 

My starting point, and the one I keep coming back to, is that it is just too wierd to be a fake.

 

If someone was going to put together a jacket with Asian made patches and try to pass it off as "real", they would usually go to great pains to make it convincing. Or at least to make it match the expectations of their potential buyer. The last thing they would want to do is make a glaring goof that would make someone immediately question the item. And the removed CIB only reinforces this. A fake artist would have replaced the patch.

 

So we are brought back to the conclusion that somehow this item might be real. So what is the explanation for this odd use of insignia?

 

Somewhere back in my Army career I remember talking to an Infantry officer who had served a tour in Korea in the late 1970's. One of his rotated duties was to patrol near the DMZ. I remember him telling me about wearing his rank insignia under his collar so he would not draw the attention of North Korean observers or snipers. (Stuff happened back then.) All this time I had assumed he had been talking about pin on insignia that could easily be shifted from one side to another.

 

Given that, I suppose the next logical step in convenience would be just to sew the darn things on. The whole purpose of sewn on insignia is to make it so you do not have to fool around with pinning things on before stepping out in front of the troops first thing in the morning. Hard to do in the dark....

 

A lot of Korean made insignia is made by hand guided sewing machine, but there were also some that were hand made. Many of these are very hard to tell apart from the Vietnam made insignia. But I have seen a lot of Korean made subdued insignia with a green border stitch rather than black. A positive of this uniform is they look like they all could have come from the same shop.

 

I don't think this was worn in Vietnam. Most of the SF clandestine missions over there seem to have been done in sterile fatigues, or with a bare minimum such as a name tape without rank or unit.

 

This is an odd item, but I like it. Keep it in your collection and maybe someday you will have the full explanation. You have plenty of evidence to research: Name, Rank, and branch. You might just well find out something about the wearer.

 

 

 

 

DEAR MR BURKET

 

THANKS YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR PROFESSIONAL ANALYSE ABOUT THIS ERDL JACKET

WHEN I RECEVE IT I SEND YOU MORE DETAIL PICS

 

BEST REGARDS JEROME

[River Patrol]

or with a bare minimum such as a name tape without rank or unit.

 

Sorry I just need to clarify one point........

 

Of the Special Ops men that were running recon teams or LRRP missions, those that I've interviewed or talked with have said they would never wear name tapes in the field.

 

What would be the point?...they all knew each other.

 

Only sterile uniforms went into the field for clandestine or recon units.

[cbuehler]

Sorry I just need to clarify one point........

 

Of the Special Ops men that were running recon teams or LRRP missions, those that I've interviewed or talked with have said they would never wear name tapes in the field.

 

What would be the point?...they all knew each other.

 

Only sterile uniforms went into the field for clandestine or recon units.

I think this is correct as well. Sterile uniforms seem to be the rule for these kind of operations. Even other combat units that were not special ops etc. are frequently seen in pictures with few or no patches.

 

CB

[River Patrol]

CB

 

I agree 100%. It extends beyond just Special OPs. Helicopter pilots come to mind, plus a few others, that may have worn indentifying insignia on a regular basis.

[gwb123]

Sorry I just need to clarify one point........

 

Of the Special Ops men that were running recon teams or LRRP missions, those that I've interviewed or talked with have said they would never wear name tapes in the field.

 

What would be the point?...they all knew each other.

 

Only sterile uniforms went into the field for clandestine or recon units.

 

Okay... I've talked to a Special Forces officer who had his name tape on his uniforms when he crossed over the border into the North. I've seen others in collections with a name tape and a blood type, and nothing else. And yes, as you state, there were others that wore their uniforms completely sterile.

 

Look, the longer you collect Vietnam uniforms and insignia you are going to find that there were variations to the variations and exceptions to the exceptions. You will find item after item that was modified based either on the local unit or the individual's taste. This is the maddening thing about the period: the attempts to "standardize" uniform wear were often contradictory and short lived. You can draw generalizations, but you can't make iron clad statements and rules that things were always one way or another.

 

There is another thread on this forum discussing when the Name and Identifying Tape on jungle fatigues was worn aligned on a diagonal with the top of the pocket vs. when they were worn paralell to the ground. The USARV regulations on this changed a couple of times, according to Shelby Stanton's book on Vietnam Uniforms. But the photos in his book show soldiers in the same unit wearing them both ways at the same time. One might conclude that the soldiers of the time were not fully preoccupied with following the regulations.

 

Another example is the wear of color vs. subdued insignia. The regulations will tell you that color insignia were being phased out in favor of subdued insignia in 1968. But Stanton's book shows SF soldiers in 1972 wearing uniforms bedecked with color, subdued and colored and subdued insignia all in the same unit.

 

It would be convenient for collectors if uniforms and insignia from the Vietnam War followed a set time line and specific rules. But it just does not seem to have been that way.

[Spike]

I have some pictures of SEALs around 70/71 getting ready to go on ops and in one pic the guy has just his name over the left pocket and in a couple of others the show US Navy/jump wings and name.

The only thing that kinda bothers me about the shirt is, as stated before, the material under where the CIB was is the same fade as the rest of the shirt when it should be darker.

[Copran]

Hello,

 

Did anybody check whether this SF guy really exists ? Maybe to know what he did during his tour will help us to understand why he had his patches sewn like that ?

 

Cheers

[QED4]

Many of you seem to be assuming that this guy was some sort of super spook in Viet Nam but keep in mind he could have been many other places. He may have been in Korea or an advisor to any number of countries, he may even have been an instructor at Ft Bragg. I wish I could remember where I heard about officers wearing their rank on the under side of their collars, like someone already stated when heading out they would move it from the top to the bottom so that snipers could not single them out. As for not wearing rank because your team all knew who the leader was is fine if you deep in the Viet Nam jungle but if you are on the DMZ in Korea (yes they really do shoot at you there) and may run into other friendly troops you need to be able to show you rank. He may have been an instructor and this was a way of passing on the tricks of the trade through example. This could be an authentic but very mundane jacket.

[River Patrol]

It is difficult to make a judgement on this jacket based on the pictures presented. Having it "in-hand" is the only way to know for sure. However, based on what is shown, I do not like the insignia (fade or lack there of), their placement (especially rank and bos), or the way they are stitched on (I should say, especially the way they are stitched on is the deciding factor for me). All very suspect to me. Unless I got it directly from the veteran (hopefully with an explaination), I would not buy it.

 

Another key point which suggests this is a "put-together" is that the backing material for ALL the insignia, tapes, etc. are all the same. And, yeah, sure, they could have all come from the same tailor, at the same time. Yes, anything is possible, but highly improbable for original, war-time jackets.

 

The stitch job is the main point that makes me nearly 100% sure this is a fake. All the same thread. They just varied the stitch pattern in a way that is highly unprofessional. Why would a professional soldier pay for such a sloppy job from the tailor when he's buying the nice hand-embroidered stuff??

[cbuehler]

It is difficult to make a judgement on this jacket based on the pictures presented. Having it "in-hand" is the only way to know for sure. However, based on what is shown, I do not like the insignia (fade or lack there of), their placement (especially rank and bos), or the way they are stitched on (I should say, especially the way they are stitched on is the deciding factor for me). All very suspect to me. Unless I got it directly from the veteran (hopefully with an explaination), I would not buy it.

 

Another key point which suggests this is a "put-together" is that the backing material for ALL the insignia, tapes, etc. are all the same. And, yeah, sure, they could have all come from the same tailor, at the same time. Yes, anything is possible, but highly improbable for original, war-time jackets.

 

The stitch job is the main point that makes me nearly 100% sure this is a fake. All the same thread. They just varied the stitch pattern in a way that is highly unprofessional. Why would a professional soldier pay for such a sloppy job from the tailor when he's buying the nice hand-embroidered stuff??

I tend to agree with this opinion. The sewing method is very unusual and suspect. Although, as always, it is not impossible that this could be legit.

 

CB

[VALERY]

Bonjour at all,

 

Even if I'm very far from a computer and my books these last months, I could read this very interesting subject. I've time today and here is few infos and a quick reflexion.

- less than 10 Di Giacinto served in the army in VN and only one served as infantryman:

Name: DIGIACINTO RALPH HH

Branch: ARMY

Rate: O03

Rank: CAPTAIN

MOS: 1542

MOS Title: Infantry Unit Commander

Entered: 6804

Discharged: 730221

Service Number:

State: UNKNOWN

Race: CAUCASIAN

 

- This officer served as Special Forces from november 1968 till october 1969 as Det Co in the following teams: A 204, A255 and A245. I only found him trace of him during this tour.

 

- He is listed as captain in my VN roster but I noticed that he has been discharged in 1973. If he received his commission in 1968, I can imagine that he was captain promoted around 1972,

 

-Name tape sounds for me vietnamese made and could be a spare tape brought from his tour and used after. All the other insignias seem to be locally made and the sewing remember me korea or even thai style. (I could not check my 46 th Co rosters). Collar BOS and rank made me a very good impression even if they are on the wrong side

 

- this jacket is not for me a put together but a mysterious uniform, as formyself he could used it in an asiatic advisor programm or later in a reserve SF group.

 

Hope I could help you,

Cheers

Valery

[gwb123]

It is difficult to make a judgement on this jacket based on the pictures presented. Having it "in-hand" is the only way to know for sure. However, based on what is shown, I do not like the insignia (fade or lack there of), their placement (especially rank and bos), or the way they are stitched on (I should say, especially the way they are stitched on is the deciding factor for me). All very suspect to me. Unless I got it directly from the veteran (hopefully with an explaination), I would not buy it.

 

Another key point which suggests this is a "put-together" is that the backing material for ALL the insignia, tapes, etc. are all the same. And, yeah, sure, they could have all come from the same tailor, at the same time. Yes, anything is possible, but highly improbable for original, war-time jackets.

 

The stitch job is the main point that makes me nearly 100% sure this is a fake. All the same thread. They just varied the stitch pattern in a way that is highly unprofessional. Why would a professional soldier pay for such a sloppy job from the tailor when he's buying the nice hand-embroidered stuff??

 

While I understand the points you are making, I have to respectfully disagree.

 

I have seen quite a few uniforms that had the insignia made by the same shop and added at the same time. This was normal when someone was having a uniform assembled at the beginning of an assignment, and had already earned all of the qualifications, rank etc. that were going to be placed on the uniform.

 

And we have all seen the opposite as well. Someone starts off their tour as a 1st Lt, and then gets promoted to Captain, so the rank gets switched out. During their tour they earn a CIB, so that gets added. They transfer an airborne wing from an older uniform, so that looks different and has been previously stitched. In mid-tour, they change unit assignments, so the shoulder patch changes. All legit, and all done with a different thread...

 

As for the variations on the stitch patterns, this is easily explained. The name and US Army tape were relatively flat and done with a single stitch on a sewing machine. The rank, branch, and presumably the CIB were probably folded at the edges, making them thicker and more difficult to stitch. Since these were done on straight lines, these were also done with a sewing machine. The SF Arrowhead and Airborne tab do not have straight edges, so they were hand sewn. This is not unusual. The hand sewn patches were not as tightly stitched as the machine sewn patches and that is why they are unravelling.

 

The fact that the same thread is used would be consistent with this having been made in the same shop.

 

Why would a soldier pay for such sloppy work? It probably looked better when he first picked it up. After successive washings and wearing in the field, it lost its original shape. That thread was also probably a darker color at the start, and faded as it was washed.

 

Aside from uniforms, often if you compare a Vietnamese made patch that has been sewn, worn and laundered to an unused copy of the same patch from the same shop, you will see quite a bit of difference. While the patches looked great when they were pristine, they often looked terrible after field use. This is what led to the myth that Vietnamese embroidery was poorly done. It was actually quite well done, but the materials and the dyes suffered after field use.

 

I go back to my original point... If someone was going to "fake" this uniform, they would have made it neater looking. A put together uniform is more likely to have insignia from mixed sources, rather than patches coming from the same shop. It is also hard to duplicate this level of wear and weathering. And if they were going to fake this, they would have put the rank and branch insignia on the correct side of the collar, if for no other reason than to avoid any undue attention as to its authenticity.

[gwb123]

Bonjour at all,

 

Even if I'm very far from a computer and my books these last months, I could read this very interesting subject. I've time today and here is few infos and a quick reflexion.

- less than 10 Di Giacinto served in the army in VN and only one served as infantryman:

Name: DIGIACINTO RALPH HH

Branch: ARMY

Rate: O03

Rank: CAPTAIN

MOS: 1542

MOS Title: Infantry Unit Commander

Entered: 6804

Discharged: 730221

Service Number:

State: UNKNOWN

Race: CAUCASIAN

 

- This officer served as Special Forces from november 1968 till october 1969 as Det Co in the following teams: A 204, A255 and A245. I only found him trace of him during this tour.

 

- He is listed as captain in my VN roster but I noticed that he has been discharged in 1973. If he received his commission in 1968, I can imagine that he was captain promoted around 1972,

 

-Name tape sounds for me vietnamese made and could be a spare tape brought from his tour and used after. All the other insignias seem to be locally made and the sewing remember me korea or even thai style. (I could not check my 46 th Co rosters). Collar BOS and rank made me a very good impression even if they are on the wrong side

 

- this jacket is not for me a put together but a mysterious uniform, as formyself he could used it in an asiatic advisor programm or later in a reserve SF group.

 

Hope I could help you,

Cheers

Valery

 

Valery... nice research. Would you like to share with the rest of us where you came up with this information? I've had quite a few uniforms I would have liked to have researched by name, but never came up with a good source.

 

I have gone on www.military.com at times, but I can tell you for a fact that their database is incomplete. I've looked for people that I served with and sometimes they are missing.

 

But this does give this uniform a lot more credibility. Good job!