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NEED ID FOR S.F ERDL JACKET


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This is a uniform with little or no field-use and no laundering, since all the insignia, etc. are still vibrantly black. So he purchased this and rarely wore it? Possible. Used on advisory duty? Possible (yet to which unit, and why not switch the SF patch/arc to the combat side). But decided to take the CIB, and not his name tape. Usually the name tape is first to go. (Still) Suspicious in my book. Did anything else come with the jacket? Usually there is a lighter, a beret, trousers, paperwork, etc. What is the source?

 

Now that you have a matched name from a roster, you will need to interview him (if you know him) and find out why his jacket is this way. Unfortunately, this is most difficult and not something I'd advocate. However, it is the only way to know 100%. I know these rosters are out there in the public and can still be purchased (RADIX?) or found in various SF publications from the time. Unfortunately, that is "the rub". These rosters do exist in the public domain and can be used for a variety of reasons by a variety of people. A matched name in a roster does not instill confidence (for me!).

 

I stand by my original assessment.

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They just varied the stitch pattern in a way that is highly unprofessional.

 

I need to correct myself. The quote above should state: "The stitch pattern is the same, they just varied the stitch density, which is highly unprofessional."

 

They also chose one of the weakest stitch patterns to use, which is preferred by Korean-type fakes.

 

It is not a stitch pattern seen on any other SF uniform I have, have handled, or have seen.

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The SF Arrowhead and Airborne tab do not have straight edges, so they were hand sewn.

 

I'm sorry, you are "way off" on this.

 

Please look again.

 

It is meant to deceive. It is NOT hand sewn on the uniform. It is all machine done, they just varied the stitch density.

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I'm sorry, you are "way off" on this.

 

Please look again.

 

It is meant to deceive. It is NOT hand sewn on the uniform. It is all machine done, they just varied the stitch density.

 

I think you said earlier that we can only tell so much from the photograph, and would have a better look if we had it our hands. I took a second look and it still looks like the Arrowhead and SF tab are hand sewn to the uniform. The real test would be to turn it inside out and look at the reverse stitching on the inside sleeve. I would also be looking to see if the patches have been worn and pressed into the jacket fabric. Over time patches leave a mirror image impression. This is hard to duplicate with a put together uniform.

 

As for the CIB being missing, it was common for SF vets to take in-country made qualification badges (CIB, jump wings, ARVN jump wings) and sew them onto later uniforms. I've even seen them carried forward to BDU's. It was their subtle way of saying "I've been there." I'll agree I've seen that done with name tags as well.

 

At this point, we will have to agree to disagree. I've spent a lot of time tracking and documenting fakes and reproductions, including uniforms. Your concerns are well founded, but what I am seeing in these pictures just does not track with the fakes I have seen.

 

As far as contacting the Vet, that's always a possibility. One avenue would be to see if he could be contacted through the Special Forces Association.

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I'm sorry, you are "way off" on this.

 

Please look again.

 

It is meant to deceive. It is NOT hand sewn on the uniform. It is all machine done, they just varied the stitch density.

 

I'm sorry, you are "way off" on this.

 

Please look again.

 

It is meant to deceive. It is NOT hand sewn on the uniform. It is all machine done, they just varied the stitch density.

 

Hi all,

 

I have some different observations if I may be permitted to share them.

 

First the disclaimer: I'm basing all of this on the photos at hand, and I'm hardly an aerial intelligence wiz. So until better pics turn up, this is what I'm seeing...

 

I concur that all the patches were sewn to the uniform by machine. The variance in the spacing, but not so much the width (which is fairly consistent), of the zig-zag stitching can be due to the operator's slowing down or speeding up of his pull of the material through the machine while negotiating the curves. Anyone good enough to hand embroider the width of the stitch consistently would likely not be inept when it came to spacing. Using a machine, however, is a slightly different skill set.

 

It may be possible that the use of the zig-zag stitch to apply, at least the rank and BOS, is not because the material is folded and thicker, but rather the opposite - that it is because it may be cut right from the cloth and sewn on, not folded. The stitch spacing is much closer on these which would hold the edge together and keep it from fraying. In the photos, they just seem to appear too flat for being folded.

 

The SSI bothers me for one huge reason: There is no puckering of the edge of the patch where the stitching is absent from holding it against the uniform. Often these small areas curl and pucker with wear and develop a "hairlip" appearance. And this certainly doesn't look like a well-maintained, nice-and-starchy example of a uniform.

 

The stitching on the left breast where a CIB is assumed to be, bothers me, too. It looks the same as all the other stitching. What I mean is that it doesn't look like threads have been pulled or cut to remove any insignia from that location. Is it possible that, like the collar patches, there is a patch sewn to the inside, and what we are seeing is the bobbin stitching? Or is it put on there to "fake [us] out"? i.e.: to create more myth and intrigue. It's length also appears a bit short for the CIB's I've ever seen (and I admit my experience is not as vast as many of yours).

 

The placement of the insignia, no doubt, is baffling. THe locations of the patches seem to been done to regulation, except that the rank is still on the wrong side (though upside-down). The name tapes are sewn with the pockets, consistent with the years we see more ERDL (I'm aware there is debate over that issue as well). But officers typically have their poop in a group, and are expected to more so.

 

It's an interesting piece to say the least. I have my doubts but I think the jury might be out for quite some time on this one.

 

Cordially,

 

JB

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I'm a man of few words. I did not want to make any comments on this jacket since I had nothing good to say about it. However, it is a minefield for collectors out there, so all viewpoint are encouraged to be "voiced". Let the readers make up there own minds based on facts presented. There is no jury. Collecting should not be a group sport. Decide for yourself.

 

The jacket (seperate from the insignia) is real and well worn. The insignia are not used and look new (unworn; never washed).

 

The uniform is either assembled during the war or after the war.

 

IF it was assembled during the war, it had to have been late war and then never used, never washed (no puckering to the patches) etc., done by one tailor who used a sewing pattern not typical of the time period (maybe because he was cheap or sloppy [but that contradicts his excellent hand-embroidered insignia] or his sewing machine could only produce that one pattern).

 

IF it was assembled post war, what would a faker use:

1)common jungle jackets

2)new insignia bought from all one source, made to order with a known name (any current Asian market, hand-embroidery is common)

3)cheap, unprofessional stitching styles, varying the density of the stitch to give the appearance of hand sewn-on insignia

4) Rely on tall-tales from the battlefield about placement of insignia to give it a unique look (which was essentially de-bunked by an SF vet on the first page of this thread)

 

 

Plus, Vietnam war SF guys rarely wore ripstop and rarely ERDL/ripstop. As far as I know they hated the rip-stop (unless they were desk jockeys and nothing else was available).

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The one thing I think we will all agree on is that there are an abundance of faked Vietnam era uniforms on the market. A collector getting into this field really does have to be very careful.

 

That said, it is still difficult to fully dismiss this particular item based upon what has discussed here.

 

"The jacket (seperate from the insignia) is real and well worn. The insignia are not used and look new (unworn; never washed)."

 

It was not unusual for field uniforms to be recycled. I have had several with multiple laundry marks indicating they were owned by more than one soldier. Each one added their own insignia.

 

When I look at the insignia in these photos, I am seeing wear. While not "puckered" at the edges, you can see wrinkling in the background material on both the SF Arrowhead and the name tape. The ABN tab looks to be pulled by the material under it. Also, to my eye there is a slight fading to the black thread. To me, these insignia have been washed.

 

To add to that the color of the thread used for stitching the patches to the uniform looks faded. This was typical of threads of the time... the dyes in Asian made thread tended to wash out and lose color over time. This is hard to duplicate.

 

As for "puckering" in general, there is no universal standard for this. This will vary based on the material, sewing technique, how well the item was sewn to the uniform, and above all how the item was worn and washed. I have had used insignia that looked great on the uniform, but then "puckered" the moment when they were removed. Even a sloppy sewing job can keep a patch secured enough that it does not curl at the edges.

 

"...done by one tailor who used a sewing pattern not typical of the time period (maybe because he was cheap or sloppy)..."

 

Given the number of tailor shops, PX seamstresses, "seamstress outside the gate", and the GI's who sewed their own uniforms, there were quite a few stitching patterns that one will find on period uniforms.

 

"[but that contradicts his excellent hand-embroidered insignia] or his sewing machine could only produce that one pattern)."

 

These insignia could have been made by a local seamstress who was excellent at embroidery but lousy with a sewing machine. Keep in mind that Vietnam has a centuries old tradition of embroidery, and it was a well developed skill by the time of the conflict. Mechanization, including sewing machines, was still not universal in the 1960's to this country.

 

"IF it was assembled post war, what would a faker use:

 

1)common jungle jackets..."

 

Very often true. But there are plenty of more exotic items, such as gold pattern Tiger Stripe fatigues and Thai made USAF party suits that have been doctored by adding insignia. A truly dedicated fake artist will take a $75 or $150 item and boost it to a $350 to $600 item. For someone who really knew his history, what we have been looking at would be a small item.

 

A more convincing fake could have been made with the same insignia using a 1st or 2nd pattern Jungle jacket.

 

"2)new insignia bought from all one source, made to order with a known name (any current Asian market, hand-embroidery is common)"

 

I am not sure where one goes to get a made to order full set of Asian hand embroidered insignia. There are plenty of fake hand embroidered unit insignia on the market. I've bought dozens to use as examples in my books. On rare occaison, you will see a newly made hand embroidered identifying tape (US Army). But for current fake artists, name, rank and branch insignia are not worth the time and price to produce.. there is no money in it.

 

There are also many fakes on the market with insignia that came from multiple sources. Given the history that GI's may have added insignia as they changed rank or earned qualification patches, or changed unit patches, some of these fakes can be very convincing.

 

"3)cheap, unprofessional stitching styles, varying the density of the stitch to give the appearance of hand sewn-on insignia..."

 

I can't rule that out completely, but with most of the fakes I've encountered the fake artist has not been that creative. Now they might pick a "sloppy" sewing style, but usually once they pick a pattern it is the same for all of the insignia sewn on the uniform. I've seen one or two where they change the color of the thread to match different patches, but I've yet to see one with this amount of variation.

 

Keep in mind that a repro artist is typically trying to mimic reality, without raising suspicions about the copy he is making. Usually they create just enough of an appearance to suggest the item is real. But it is counter to their intentions if they over do it to the point where people question the item.

 

"4) Rely on tall-tales from the battlefield about placement of insignia to give it a unique look (which was essentially de-bunked by an SF vet on the first page of this thread)"

 

If that was the goal with this item, then it didn't work very well. Look at the skepticism just from the folks reading this thread.

 

Repro Artists generally make fake uniforms to make money. Once in awhile you will run into an individual who puts something together just for the ego trip to prove he can fool the "experts". But normally the motivation is money. Why waste the time to make something that would be instantly questioned? If this had been a fake, it could have easily been made more convincing by just placing the insignia in a more standard manner. That would be cash in the bank.

 

As far as debunked, I've been told first hand that wearing insignia on the reverse of the collar was done in the foward deployed areas in Korea in the 1970's. I am sure the SF vet who responded was correct that he had not seen it during his service tenure, but when and where did he serve? When I was serving with the 8th ID in Europe in the 1980's you would swear that no one in the Army was making color patches for small units any more. They just were not being done in my area. Later I came to find out the folks in the 3rd ID down in the south were cranking them out right and left and probably still are to this day.

 

 

"Plus, Vietnam war SF guys rarely wore ripstop and rarely ERDL/ripstop. As far as I know they hated the rip-stop (unless they were desk jockeys and nothing else was available)."

 

Interesting observation. I went back to the photo references I looking for SF troops wearing ERDL. It was hard to find examples. Most of them appear to have been worn in "rear areas", and quite often as ceremony or formation uniforms. I found a couple photos of ERDL being worn in Nha Trang by training cadre, and the majority of examples seemed to be from 46th SF Company stationed in Thailand. ERDL was also apparently worn by 7th GP SF soldiers while training stateside.

 

In contrast, ERDL seemed to favored by Ranger and LRRP units. Photos abound of these uniforms being worn by these teams in field operations.

 

As far as poplin vs. ripstop, this is a little harder to sort out. Photos exist of SF troops wearing 1st, 2nd and 3rd pattern Jungle Fatigues. What is hard to determine from the photos is if any of the 3rd pattern Jungle Fatigues are ripstop or not. The pictures I have simply cannot pick up this level of detail.

 

Poplin uniforms were lighter, and as such reduced heat build up. There may very well have been a preference for such uniforms. However, they did not wear well in field conditions. Also, at some point, the poplin uniforms would have faded from the supply system, leaving only the ripstop ones available. I am not sure when this point came. I know that the SF personnel I met in 1976 at Ft. Bragg were all wearing ripstop.

 

For anyone new to the subject of Vietnam uniforms, it should be obvious at this point that it is a complex issue. The problem for the Vietnam period is that while you can make generalizations, you cannot make rules. As soon as you do, an exception will pop up that was the result of either a field necessity or personal preferences.

 

The best advice is to seek out and look at as many real, confirmed examples that you can find. This maybe a friend's collection, a museum display, examples in books. Quite a few collectors are displaying their collections on the web and have shared some excellent examples.

 

As always, if you are unsure and the price is high, walk away from it. You can always tell the story about the "one that got away." But you can't always get your money back. There are plenty of good ones on the market, it is just a matter of looking. And start out small... there is a lot to be learned from the uniform of the average infantry man before you move on up to the more exotic stuff.

SF_France_2_mod2.JPG

SF_France_3_mod.JPG

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The one thing I think we will all agree on is that there are an abundance of faked Vietnam era uniforms on the market. A collector getting into this field really does have to be very careful.

 

That said, it is still difficult to fully dismiss this particular item based upon what has discussed here.

 

 

I can agree that there is an abundance of faked Vietnam era uniforms on the market. Hopefully others are aware of it. I know some aren't, and many of those are new collectors (that is, new to collecting militaria).

 

 

I have not FULLY dismissed this uniform. But I'm a purist. I still believe it may be real, but the probability of that is very, very, very, very low -- in my opinion.

 

If others have opinions about his jacket or what has been expressed here, please chime in.

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vintageproductions

While I have sat back reading everyones comments on this subject, I figured it was time to add my two cents. Gil, brings up some great points, and esp the point about how many different tailors there were to sew insignia on to your uniforms. There were literally thousands of Mom & Pop tailor shops in Vietnam & South East Asia, and I can guarantee that did not have a SOP manual for sewing insignia on everything. Whatever their preference / specialty was that is how they did it. I am in Japan right now on a buying trip and don't have access to some of my uniforms, but I have a rip-stop erdl used by a special forces JCRC soldier that has all the insignia stripped, rather quickly, and the edges / stitch trace is identical to this type. When I get back to the states, I will post some photos of it. This uniform is a prime example of, no matter how much we think we know on a subject, there is always something new to learn.

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This has been a good discussion and a lively one. A lot of good information was brought out.

 

I got inspired and pulled out some of my photos known fake uniforms. Many of these I had one time bought for my own collection. Live and learn. Hopefully someone can learn from these.

 

I have added a thread under the Fakes and Reproductions for Fake Vietnam Uniforms. I'd invite anyone to post there if they have an example that is a CONFIRMED fake. As anyone can see from this, if there is one out there that needs discussion, it can easily fill its own thread.

 

As you look at some of the stuff I've added... try not to laugh too hard. It all looked good at the time!

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vintageproductions

jcrc1.JPGjcrc2.JPGjcrc3.JPG

Just got back to me shop and shot these photos. Here is a Special Forces rip-stop ERDL camo shirt for a soldier attached to the 46th Company in Thailand. He was then attached to JCRC ( Joint Casualities Resolution Committee). When these guys were sent out they were told to remove their US insignia and have orange panels sewn to the uniforms for visibility purposes ( these panels are signal panels as when one stitch is lifted you can see the pink on the other side). This stitch is identical to the uniform posted in the stitching. I know where my uniform came from and I have absolutely no doubts about it being authetic. So by going by some of the above postings, does that make mine fake because it has a odd stitch job? Like I stated in my earlier posting there were literally 1000's of Mom & Pop tailor shops in Vietnam / South East Asia, and to think or make statements that everyone of them used a specific stitch pattern is ridiculous.

This reminds me of back in the early 90's, there was a group of Special Forces patch collectors in Texas, that said if you sent them your patches they could tell you the exact shop they were made. This was a case of collectors just being full of themselves. Unless you were the soldier that had the patches made, or where you had your insignia sewn to your uniform, it is very difficult to claim to know where each shop was that did these type of services.

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DEAR COLLECTORS

 

MY EXCUSES FOR THE DELAY I JUST RECEVE THIS JACKET

I POST YOU SOME NEWS PICS I HOPE THESE PICS CAN HELP YOU

FOR YOUR ANALIZE

 

REGARDS JEROME

post-1486-1191336580.jpg

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