Jump to content


Photo

Help Authenticating WW2 USMC P44 Frogskins. Authentic or Repro?


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 SouthShore 8754

SouthShore 8754
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 288,119
  • 11 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:27 PM

I recently acquired these P44 Frogskin trousers the other day and cannot come to a proper verdict on whether or not they are authentic or repros. I have looked through my books grunt gear and dungarees & frogskins and cannot seem to reach a conclusion. Grunt gear describes them as being second pattern p44's due to the belt slots. One problem I have with these is that the pants have four buttons on the fly whereas all the examples in my books have five buttons. I have seen youtube videos of people having four button fly second patterns and I have also seem some older forum posts on there with the four button fly configuration on second patterns as well.

 

I also cannot determine if the hbt fabric has that "fuzzy" look that many collectors on here describe as being fake. I am new to collecting these so I cannot tell any help on this would be welcome. Also, the pattern of hbt weave ont he pants seems correct. I realize they used army hbt weave on these, however I do feel as if these are lighter than the korean war era army hbt tunic I have in my collection.

 

As far as the stitching is concerned, I have posted a photo of the chain stitching on the crotch and up the main seam of the pants. Does this chain stitching pattern look correct? Also,, what throws me off is that the buttons on here are heavily oxidized. Can this be faked? It seems to be promising but also misleading.

 

Finally, does the camouflage pattern look authentic? Are there any problems? i put the pants up against some 50's hunting repros I have and the p44's seem to have a light green tint to them. Any help on this matter would be highly welcome as I still have a chance to return them. One final thing to note is that the number on the pants seems fake like it has been put on there with a stamp. My grandfather was in the navy from 51-57 and he told me that they would either stamp or write their laundry numbers on their hbt dungarees. This number on the pants seems fake....

 

 

Attached Images

  • IMG_3076.jpg
  • IMG_3075 (1).jpg
  • IMG_3072.jpg
  • IMG_3073.jpg
  • IMG_3054.jpg
  • IMG_3068.jpg
  • IMG_3059.jpg

Edited by SouthShore 8754, 24 February 2020 - 03:29 PM.


#2 SouthShore 8754

SouthShore 8754
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 288,119
  • 11 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:36 PM

Here are more photos of the same pants in question. One is of the chain stitching on the crotch. 

Attached Images

  • IMG_3053 (1).jpg
  • IMG_3055.jpg
  • IMG_3063.jpg
  • IMG_3062.jpg
  • IMG_3058.jpg
  • IMG_3071.jpg
  • IMG_3075 (2).jpg


#3 olivedrab1970

olivedrab1970
  • Members
    • Member ID: 162,317
  • 247 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA The Desert

Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:43 PM

My first impression is 100% authentic, P44 pattern pants have not been reproduced until recently. The newer reproductions are easy to spot on the beach camouflage pattern.

 

Robin-



#4 Bob Hudson

Bob Hudson

    Forum Co-Founder (Ret)

  • Administrators
    • Member ID: 2
  • 26,814 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 February 2020 - 03:47 PM

Can you show the stamped numbers?



#5 Bellumbill

Bellumbill
  • Members
    • Member ID: 661
  • 816 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest

Posted 24 February 2020 - 04:17 PM

Yeah, I'd say real - hard to replicate the oxidation on the snaps.  Always one of the first things I look at.

 

Best,

 

Bill K.



#6 M422A1

M422A1
  • Members
    • Member ID: 165,768
  • 266 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Helena, AL

Posted 24 February 2020 - 05:48 PM

They look good to me.

#7 manayunkman

manayunkman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 51,189
  • 14,446 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Latrine Duty Cleaning My Own Mess

Posted 24 February 2020 - 06:01 PM

What are they worth?

#8 beerdragon54

beerdragon54
  • Members
    • Member ID: 115,126
  • 850 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate NY

Posted 25 February 2020 - 04:35 AM

$250-300 a pair


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#9 kammo-man

kammo-man
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,009
  • 12,969 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:weirdville

Posted 25 February 2020 - 07:48 AM

Worst pictures but real


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#10 doyler

doyler
  • Members
    • Member ID: 342
  • 33,940 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Under The Bridge

Posted 25 February 2020 - 08:38 AM

Real for sure...



#11 'Flage Guy

'Flage Guy
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,226
  • 4,207 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Simi Valley, Ca., U.S.A.

Posted 27 February 2020 - 03:17 PM

Those are the real thing; no worries.



#12 SouthShore 8754

SouthShore 8754
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 288,119
  • 11 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 19 March 2020 - 02:35 PM

Apologies for taking so long to reply to the post. The last few weeks have been pretty hectic. Many thanks to everyone who commented and gave their opinion on the authenticity. Your insight is greatly valued and appreciated. 

 

@Bob Hudson : Here is a pic of the stamped number on the pants close up. I have no idea what it is. 

 

 

 

 

Attached Images

  • IMG_3240.jpg


#13 KRIS FORD

KRIS FORD
  • Members
    • Member ID: 176,157
  • 446 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:In dungarees, headed to the fantail Smoking Head

Posted 19 March 2020 - 03:17 PM

Dungarees were denim pants, chambray shirt,  did he wear HBTs as a Seabee?  IIRC, Navy never used laundry numbers..

50's sailors here:

Cigar-smoking+US+sailor+reading+Playboy,

 

Henry%20Girouard%202%201950s.jpg

 



#14 SouthShore 8754

SouthShore 8754
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 288,119
  • 11 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 19 March 2020 - 06:29 PM

Hi Chris:

 

Yeah your correct. He was a Seebea stationed in Morocco in the early 50's, 53' I believe.  He has told me that they used to wear the green hbt's and boon dockers when they were working. I've showed him a USMC P44 hbt I have in my collection and he told me they wore stuff similar to that. My guess is it was the navy's version of hbt's. Thought they were called dungarees. Thanks for pointing out the difference between the two thought they were the same thing. 

 

He told me they had numbers in their clothes thought they were called laundry numbers, aksed him about it and he said they were but his memory is a bit hazy after 65 + years I hope you can understand. A forum member pointed out to me in past that it was the property of their unit I believe. But this is completely unrelated to what I was originally posting.  



#15 Longbranch

Longbranch
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,320
  • 1,281 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2020 - 06:44 PM

The stamped number is 100% fine and commonly encountered on USMC items from the 1950s and 1960s.

#16 Longbranch

Longbranch
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,320
  • 1,281 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2020 - 07:36 PM

Heres a pic from the collar of a 1960s USN flight suit used by a USMC vet that served in Vietnam circa 1964. Laundry number was verified to be from the vet. I also had several sets of P44 camo from another USMC vet that were likely used during the 1950s and had the exact same type of stamp.

P44s were used quite a bit by USMC personnel throughout the 1950s, and these stamped laundry markings are definitely something seen on uniform items like this from that era.

Attached Images

  • 85251915-328C-4C3B-A6C8-B17B801D91BD.jpeg

Edited by Longbranch, 19 March 2020 - 07:38 PM.


#17 SouthShore 8754

SouthShore 8754
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 288,119
  • 11 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:05 PM

Thanks for clearing that up! Now that puts a relative date on them. I'll be sure to look out for that in the future. Now that were on the topic of P44's. Do you think these are most likely Korean War era? There seems to be some sort of number on the inside. Not sure about the stenciling on these.  I thought they only did their names on the back in WW2. 

 

 

Attached Images

  • IMG_3258.jpg
  • IMG_3256.jpg
  • IMG_3254.jpg


#18 SouthShore 8754

SouthShore 8754
  • New Members
    • Member ID: 288,119
  • 11 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:06 PM

The number inside.

 

 

Attached Images

  • IMG_3255.jpg


#19 Longbranch

Longbranch
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,320
  • 1,281 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:31 PM

Found the pics of the P44 camo set I used to have with the stamped laundry marks. Again, judging by other items from the same vet, he likely served during the 1950s.

 

Collar of P44 jacket:

Attached Images

  • DSC_2673crop.jpg


#20 Longbranch

Longbranch
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,320
  • 1,281 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:32 PM

Stamping inside waist of P44 pants:

Attached Images

  • DSC_2708crop.jpg


#21 Longbranch

Longbranch
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,320
  • 1,281 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:37 PM

They've used names stamped onto the backs for much more than just WW2:

 

 

Attached Images

  • DSC_4939.JPG


#22 Longbranch

Longbranch
  • Members
    • Member ID: 11,320
  • 1,281 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:37 PM

Back

Attached Images

  • DSC_4949.JPG



1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users