3rd Infantry Dyed Blue 4 Pocket - What and why? Early Honor Guard?

[Captainofthe7th]

I just barely got this and only did so knowing that the shoulder strap is the unit insignia for the 3d Infantry Regiment. I thought the auction photos were really bad and maybe it wasn't actually dyed, but it is indeed dark blue or black. My hunch is that this is some sort of substitute for the enlisted dress blue uniform before its re-institution in the 1950s. It does not sport the branch piping as pre-war blues do, so it would then be for post war use in 1948 and beyond. On having it in hand a few features seem to support the idea that this is for something fancier than service dress as the buttons are made to be removable and are polished so that much of the detail is smooth. If the buff strap was not present, I would have discounted this as post war civilian or police wear or something, but the regimental insignia makes me think I'm on to something interesting.

 

Blacklight shows a laundry mark H-0229 which I have not looked at yet.

 

What is this uniform? Does anyone have photos of the Honor Guard between 1948 and 1953(?). Has anyone seen a 4 pocket dyed like this before?

 

So many questions, I hope there are some answers in the hive mind of USMF.

 

 

 

Thanks,

Rob

[Wake1941]

Looks like it would have been used for honor guard to me. Definitely an interesting jacket

[patches]

That would be my guess too, something worn in the late 40s after the 3rd Infantry was reactivated in 1948 at Ft Myer, and worn before the new Dress Blue EM uniform became available.

[patches]

Check to see if there are marks on the lower lapels for discs, this being the time four discs were worn.

[Baron3-6]

That's super cool. I agree with others - maybe a later 40's stop-gap for guard and funeral details.

[patches]

That Red Scarf didn't come with this coat did it?

[Captainofthe7th]

Thanks all for the comments. I am glad we are in agreement about the potential use for this coat. Patches, I don't see marks on the lapels. Only larger holes where screwback insignia was on the collars. I will look closer tomorrow. The red scarf is just what's currently on the torso for display, it did not come with the coat.

 

Thanks,

Rob

[patches]

Thanks all for the comments. I am glad we are in agreement about the potential use for this coat. Patches, I don't see marks on the lapels. Only larger holes where screwback insignia was on the collars. I will look closer tomorrow. The red scarf is just what's currently on the torso for display, it did not come with the coat.

 

Thanks,

Rob

One guess is the screwback holes on the upper were the original brass holes worn before this was dyed, and subsequently clutch back discs were on there, clutch back holes more subtle and harder to see when worn on wool.

[MattS]

Might not be much help, but this is Fred Franks. Fred was the father of a friend of mine. He was wounded twice in Korea in 1951 and 1952 before being sent back to the states and assigned to the "Old Guard".

[QED4]

Old US uniforms were often dyed blue to issue to POWs. The buttons would have been removed but they could easily have been put back latter along with the "Old Guard" strap. You did not say what the uniform is made of, cotton or wool. If cotton I would say it was for a POW as they were no longer being worn during the war and if wool it is an early one, it has belt hooks in the back, and most likely for a POW.

[Captainofthe7th]

Might not be much help, but this is Fred Franks. Fred was the father of a friend of mine. He was wounded twice in Korea in 1951 and 1952 before being sent back to the states and assigned to the "Old Guard".

 

Thanks for posting, this is just the type of image of was looking for. With the lack of a national defense ribbon, I think we can assume this is pre-1956 when the AGs were introduced. However, the uniform does differ in the lapel pattern, scalloped pocket flaps, and pleat pockets. I wouldn't suspect that it is a pre-war blue uniform. I was reading about trials for green-gray "German type" uniforms tested out by the Old Guard in some newspapers. The chevrons could either be silver/white rayon type or the later gold on green, but again lacking the NDSM I would not think it would be that late. Thanks for posting, I think this is very close and an important image.

 

Old US uniforms were often dyed blue to issue to POWs. The buttons would have been removed but they could easily have been put back latter along with the "Old Guard" strap. You did not say what the uniform is made of, cotton or wool. If cotton I would say it was for a POW as they were no longer being worn during the war and if wool it is an early one, it has belt hooks in the back, and most likely for a POW.

 

I saw a few topics about this and considered it a possibility. The uniform is a typical wool 4 pocket and does have the belt hooks. My question with this scenario is why add the buttons and buff strap back on if the reason for dying was POW use?

 

Rob

[atb]

The 3d Infantry (TOG) received the new Army Green uniform before it was introduced to the entire Army. They also test wore the new Infantry blue distinctions. A special explanatory letter was carried by Old Guard soldiers in case they were stopped by officers, NCOs, and MPs who questioned their wear of an "unauthorized" uniform. The pictured soldier may be wearing an early Army Green uniform.

[USARV72]

Coat is Mdl 39? with belt hooks and pleated back? Any tag in pocket or liner? Every WWII POW GI clothing I’ve seen/ had was dyed Black. Would bet $$$ its for “Old Guard”, nice piece.

[kammo-man]

Pow dyed blue or emerald green

Pow is where I am leaning

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[USARV72]

Thats funny, back in 80’s bought about 20 GI wool shirts that were dyed black and had POW on sleeves and on back. At the GAP flea market guys had several black dyed POW uniform pieces through the years.

[Captainofthe7th]

5 for Old Guard vs 2 for POW

 

Vote now on your phones.

 

 

I think a POW dye job is more likely, at least statistically more likely, but the replacement polished buttons and buff strap seem like an unlikely move if that was the case. I do plan on selling this and it may have to end up as buyer's choice as I couldn't advertise one way or the other.

 

Rob

[USARV72]

IIRC, one well known collectors guide has black dyed POW uniforms, have to dig through boxes. Anything is possible, any trace of “POW” painted on jacket? Wish I had kept one shirt, long time ago.

[ScottG]

What about American Legion? They have a blue uniform and many veteran groups used actual uniforms until they either made their own like the Legion or adopted civilian dress codes for formal functions. Just a thought. Scott

[MattS]

In reference to the photo in post #9, it is from 1952.

"Fredrick enlisted in the U.S. Army, July 14, 1949. An Infantry Soldier of the 7th Infantry Division who landed in the Invasion of Inchon, Korea in September 1950. Acquiring two Purple Hearts, The Combat Infantry Badge, Korea Service Medal and a Silver Star. His division acquired a Presidential Unit Citation with a Cluster and the Korean Presidential Unit Citation. He completed his enlistment in April 1952 with The Old Guard, the Home of the Unknown Soldier in Washington, D.C."

 

https://www.williamsonspencer.com/notices/Fredrick-Franks

[QED4]

First off the buttons and strap would not have been added for the POWs use but rather sometime after the government surplussed it off and you bought it. Second I seriously doubt the Old Guard, the most prestigious honor guard in the United States Army, who wear specially tailored and often unique uniforms would ever wear hand me down, re-dyed uniforms it just doesn't make senses.

[atb]

And I know the artifact collection of the now closed Old Guard Museum contains issued dress blue uniforms of the late-1940s-early 1950s period.

[Captainofthe7th]

Thanks for all the help everyone. I'll be listing this for sale...either old guard or POW, buyers choice.....

 

Rob