17 replies to this topic

[Der Finn]

I listened to this yesterday (12/29/'18) on www.revealnews.org.  It was a rebroadcast segment entitled "Take No Prisoners" and the interviews with veterans were enlightening, informative, and sad.  I highly recommend listening.  You will learn more about the Ardennes, Malmedy, POW's, and the horrors of war - all from the perspective of actual veterans.

 

[Garandomatic]

Interesting

[Gregory]

Did the Allied angels liberate Normandy and ETO?

 

Only the winners write the history and the winners are not judged. The best example is Falaise Gap aka Argentan Gap (in the US terminology). Last decades I interviewed many of that Gap vets. Why it is so hard to find the Waffen SS POWs there and then?

[917601]

Interesting, but not news to me. My father (342nd Infantry Regiment) had stated small patrols that were crossing the Rhine to take prisoners were not bringing any captured SS back across the Rhine. A check with Wiki on the broadcast, mentioned the same.

"The official post-war history published by the United States government states that while "it is probable that Germans who attempted to surrender in the days immediately after the 17th ran a greater risk" of being killed than earlier in the year, even so, "there is no evidence... that American troops took advantage of orders, implicit or explicit, to kill their SS prisoners."[5] However, according to George Henry Bennett and referring to the above statement; "The caveat is a little disingenuous", and he proceeds to note that it is likely the orders to shoot prisoners (given by the 328th Infantry regiment) were carried out, and that other US regiments were likely also given similar orders.[6] But the killing of SS prisoners had become routine at the time for some units. The 90th Infantry Division at the Saar "executed Waffen-SS prisoners in such a systematic manner late in December 1944 that headquarters had to issue express orders to take Waffen-SS soldiers alive so as to be able to obtain information from them".[7]"
https://en.m.wikiped...enogne_massacre

[Gregory]

I recommend Tony Fosterꞌs book "Meeting of Generals". Tony Foster is son of Canadian Maj. Gen. Harry W. Foster. Both German and Allied war crimes are mentioned by General.

 

When SS-Brigadeführer Kurt Meyer was court martialed (for his war crimes) by the Canadians (with Harry W. Foster participation) Foster wrote later on:

 

"There was an irony to this whole distasteful affair. Not because of what had happened to my men -- that was inexcusable. But then war is inexcusable. What struck me as I sat in my comfortable chair looking down at this hardnosed Nazi was that not one of us sitting on the bench, with the exception of Bredin, could claim clean hands in the matter of war crimes or atrocities or whatever you want to call them. It hadnꞌt all been one-sided. Our troops did some pretty dreadful things to the Germans. Didnꞌt that make all of us who were commanding officers just as guilty as Meyer?"

Edited by Gregory, 30 December 2018 - 03:38 PM.

[ottodog8]

Over the years I have spoken to many combat veterans. I was particularly close to 3 of them, all were in ground combat in Europe (one of them in the Pacific as well) and they were unanimous in their statements that SS prisoners were summarily shot. They all knew who the SS were and how to identify them. One quote has alway stayed with me: “yeah the SS were tough, but when we ran them down the street after we cleaned out a town they sh-t their pants like anyone else. They knew what was coming and they got it”. Another said as far as was concerned, “the average kraut didn’t want to be there any more than I did, but the SS was different”. He said they would cull out the SS, and the platoon leader would tell a BAR man or a GI with a Thompson to “take these prisoners back to the stockade and be back in five minutes”. The GI would take them around a bend in the road or behind a barn and return alone.
The GIs who fought and defeated them knew the SS were not “soldiers like other soldiers”.

Steve

[manayunkman]

Americans killed prisoners and raped women.

 

More than one US veteran has told me about atrocities they committed.

[ottodog8]

Of course if Hitler and the Germans hadn’t been such aholes and brought untold human suffering and millions of deaths to Europe, the Americans wouldn’t have been there to kill prisoners and rape women.

Steve

[manayunkman]

Amen Steve

[Simon Lerenfort]

It is a sad fact that warfare can unleash the beast inside any being, no matter what uniform they wear. I have first hand experience of Germans being shot in the Ardennes by US soldiers, in the case of those two we discovered back in the early 1990's that both were in fact German Panzer men (wore deaths head on their uniform) and probably wrongly identified as waffen SS and had been bound and executed most likely by soldiers of 1st Infantry Division.

[Gregory]

It is a sad fact that warfare can unleash the beast inside any being, no matter what uniform they wear.

 

Agree.

 

When we take a look -- for example -- at the Falaise Gap (Argentan Gap for the Americans) one more sad fact is the following:

 

• The Canadians tell "German POWs were murdered by the Poles, British and Americans, not by us";

 

• The Poles tell "German POWs were murdered by the Canadians, British and Americans, not by us";

 

• The British tell "German POWs were murdered by the Poles, Canadians and Americans, not by us";

 

• The Americans tell "German POWs were murdered by the Poles, Canadians and British, not by us".

 

I researched it many years and interviewed various Falaise/Argentan vets. To some extent it is also clearly seen in the books.

[ottodog8]

Thinking about the vets I knew, I don’t think they were motivated by bloodlust, or whatever. I had long talks with these vets over a period of many years. One of them was an artist, a cultured and sensitive man. He happened to have beem a Forward Observer in the 80th Infantry Division, fought from Normandy to the end. He had scars on his shoulders from the straps of the radio, and he had nightmares until the day he died. The impression I had from these men was that they hated being dragged over there and having to do what they did, and they blamed the SS (with ample justification) and took it out on them. We had already gone over in WW1 to fight the “war to end wars” and to “make the world safe for democracy”. And here we were 25 years later doing it all over again. These guys were pissed off. One of them remarked about seeing the thousands of screaming, saluting Nazis in the newsreels before the war, yet when he got into Germany all he heard was “ich nicht bin ein nazi”. As he said, we couldn’t have killed all of them.

Steve

[Gregory]

“Ich nicht bin ein nazi”

 

Yes, well-known fact from each TR city, town and village -- tens of millions of innocents 

[bigschuss]

It is a sad fact that warfare can unleash the beast inside any being, no matter what uniform they wear. 

 

Agreed.  Though in the end, I think there can be no doubt that ultimately the forces of imperfect good defeated the forces of near perfect evil.  

[stratasfan]

"Though in the end, I think there can be no doubt that ultimately the forces of imperfect good defeated the forces of near perfect evil."

 

I just stumbled on this thread, and don't usually get into political discussion like this. However, I love bigschuss' comment which I quote above. Of course, the Allies did some dishonorable things. Americans do dishonorable things every day here, not in a time of war, things that are far worse than most things that happened by US soldiers. Read the news. When Christian ethics and morals are fading or forgotten, bad things follow. 

 

However . . . That Winners only write history is baloney. There are tons of books written by Germans. I've even had some written by SS men. I've read articles written by SS officers. By Japanese soldiers who ate their prisoners. The history is there. Why should it be remembered in great detail, more than is needed to understand the motivation of the Allies to wipe out those large atrocities? An evil man's name will rot away. 

 

The SS did far more than a GI. Can you blame them for not taking prisoners when it came to the SS? War is hell, and when it comes to the SS . . . I don't think you can stand at home today, with your feet up and no major threat to your life or liberty or the life or liberty of those you love or the world at large, and judge a single Allied soldier for treatment of the SS. Maybe it is the true American in me, like the old West. They played the game . . . and lost. An eye for an eye, and you have to know that most of those soldiers believed that.

 

I have an interesting article in a WWII magazine written by a US soldier who was with a division that was advancing first through many German towns. He was very frank, and I thought it a very cool article to to see what someone was going through at the time. He said that by the time the US troops were taking over German towns, they had see n so much death in their own ranks and seen so many horrors in Europe, that they had a routine by the time it came to taking over German towns. If the town fought them when they approached . . . the Us troops burnt the town. If the Germans didn't attack them, they left it all fine and just took over. He said, by that time, they had all seen too many close friends and strangers die horribly to put up with any more. 

 

And that wasn't the SS. 

 

So - Gregory --- did the Allied "angels" liberate Normandy and the ETO? Well, in marking a large group of people with generic tags like that . . . more than the demonic SS who "liberated" the ETO years earlier or the Russian pigs who liberated parts of the ETO. Of course, this is totally my opinion, but your statement is also just yours. 

 

I'm disappointed that anyone would want to marginally defend the SS. They were evil. They are evil. Seeing there insignia alone should make your heart flip. The whole creation and reason for them was evil. 

 

I don't think that you can judge soldiers back then for not taking SS prisoners. How about that guy with the conceal and carry gun in the restaurant a short bit ago. When a gunman came in to the restaurant and killed people, the guy stood up and shot the gunman. Dead. Would you have taken him a prisoner? 

 

If a terrorist was high-jacking a plane and killed passengers, and someone had a gun and aimed it at him . . . do you think they would try and arrest him? I bet not. 

 

The SS did large and more. I wouldn't really say this about another group in WWII, I bet. But . . . they knew what they were doing. They did it. They played and lost. When they lost, they expected kind treatment. Really, wouldn't more people behave better, perhaps, if whatever you did wrong you had done to you in the same degree? Really, they got better executions than they gave.

 

God uses imperfect man. There were imperfect men in the Army. There were imperfect men in all the Armies. I don't know what you call the SS men. I wouldn't say they were blameless, that's for sure. They murdered, they were executed. The SS weren't the little old Johann Schmidt who had to join the Army. Again . . . to quote - "They played the game . . . and lost."

[jmd62]

My Dad talked about this topic once or twice and he was clear that they (his unit at least) treated German prisoners very well. He felt they were just serving their country as he was serving his. No disrespect at all. On the other hand, he made it clear that after seeing atrocities like those he saw at Dachau, his squad stopped taking SS prisoners. That wasn't an official position or directive, it was just the way his rifle squad handled things those last days of the war. He was only 19 years old and other than his squad leader and another squad mate, the rest were about the same age. I'm not sure if that played into or not? All I know is that he never felt remorse for what they did. 

[jweitkamp]

My father was a POW in Germany. Had his captors decided to shoot all of the "luft gangsters" that bombed civilians I wouldn't be here. Summary execution happens. It is not right.

Edited by jweitkamp, 26 March 2019 - 04:48 PM.

[Gregory]

@ stratasfan

 

Nobody defends SS. Definitely not me. In the time of Normandy Falaise/Argentan Gap (simultaneously the period of Warsaw Uprising) the SS criminals commanded by SS-Oberführer Oskar Dirlewanger murdered in my city 50,000 civilians including medics, nurses, children, women, old people. The Polish 1st Armoured Division in Normandy paid back SS very well for it. And no wonder. I would do the same then. For me SS POW then would be something unknown.