Wing ID needed

[Mr.Jerry]

I am helping a local woman make up her father's shadow box of his military insignia. She sent me this photo of him, and now I am bit confused. He was enlisted, but that sure looks like a pilot wing to me. The officer winged props on the lapels is odd too.

 

Were there enlisted Pilots in the USAAF? Pre-warrant officer?

 

Thanks!

Jerry

[268th C.A.]

I do know that there were enlisted pilots in WW2. The collar devises do look a little strange. But I have so many variations on insignia nothing is unusual.

[stratasfan]

For all it is worth . . . I have a letter from my GGGUncle, who joined the Air Corps in 1939. He trained as a mechanic and was with a B-17/B-24 squadron in Alaska until 1943. He wrote to his Aunt in 1941 and was talking about how he had been working at becoming an enlisted pilot. However, his submitted paperwork was taking so long to go through channels, that he was going to pass the age limit before they got to it. He figured that mechanics would be more in call after the war and it was probably a better profession to keep working on than becoming a pilot. So, there was a program for enlisted pilots. Exactly what it was, I don't know. Hope this helps!

[Teamski]

There were enlisted pilots during WWII. Chuck Yeager was one of them. The practice ended, I think, in 1944.

 

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/MuseumExhibits/FactSheets/Display/tabid/509/Article/196406/1941-1945-world-war-ii-sergeant-pilots.aspx

 

 

-Ski

[Cololab]

Early in the war there were enlisted pilots; Flight officers or Warrant Officers and if I recall correctly, Flight Sergeants. The Flight Officer rank continued, but I think the Flight Sergeant rank was phased out as new officer pilots filled were trained.

[Lee Ragan]

Does anyone see any rank insignia on him? How could a buck private be rated as a pilot? Why enlisted collar brass on the upper lapel and officer brass on the lower? Under no conditions, would an enlisted man wear a mixture of collar brass like this. Lots of questions here. It all looks kind of fishy to me., but seeing all sorts of WWII era uniforms being worn with wrong insignia in period photos isn't something new. Maybe this guy humped up his uniform to impress someone back home. We'll probably never know.

[pconrad02]

Artillery Spotter Liaison Pilots also - I had a named group for one years ago - was a Sergeant

[doyler]

Early in the war there were enlisted pilots; Flight officers or Warrant Officers and if I recall correctly, Flight Sergeants. The Flight Officer rank continued, but I think the Flight Sergeant rank was phased out as new officer pilots filled were trained.

I have a Glider pilots uniform that was a Staff Sgt.

[BEAST]

I would think that with what appears to be a black tie, this photo was taken early in the war.

[Kimo]

I have only heard of enlisted pilots being sergeants, never privates. On the other hand it was not uncommon for some guys to "enhance" their uniforms when taking photos for the folks at home, or when going into town on a pass, or after the war when talking about their exploits, etc. I am not saying that is what this photo is, but it appears that way to my eyes.

 

There is an easy way to know exactly what should honestly go into her father's shadow box that you are preparing. As the daughter of a vet, she is entitled to receive a copy of his military service records simply by applying for them. She can apply on line or in writing. You can help her do this to make it easy for her. Her dad's military service records will show when he entered service, to what units he was assigned at various points in the war, his actual rank and any promotions he may have been given, any medals to which he is entitled to wear, any qualifications badges to which he is entitled to wear including wings, CIB, etc., any overseas service hashes he would have been entitled to wear on his forearm sleeve, etc. From these records you could put together a very complete, impressive, and factual shadow box to honor his service. And once you have a copy of his military service records, you can help this woman to apply for a set of replacement medals for whatever medals his record shows him as being entitled to wear such as the WW 2 victory medal, any campaign medals, and any other medals that he might have earned such as a good conduct medal, a valor medal, a purple heart, etc. These replacement medals are free of charge. Whatever is listed in his military service record is what they will send to her. You can incorporate these into his shadow box. You and she will need to understand that obtaining his service record and then any replacement medals does take some time so you need to have patience. It can take many months. Also, you need to understand that there was a fire in 1973 at the Archives building where these are stored and some of the records were destroyed. Hopefully her dad's records are not among those destroyed but if they were sometimes the Archives can reconstruct some or all of the vet's records.

 

Here is your starting point: https/www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-records

 

And once you get a copy of his service records, here is where you can start the process of having her request replacement medals: https/www.archives.gov/veterans/replace-medals/html

 

Again, have a little patience and try to provide as much as possible of the requested identification information in your request for the service records. The more of the requested information you can provide the faster it will be. I went through this process myself for my dad who was a Captain and Squadron Commander in the USAAF. Patience and providing as much as possible of the identification information they request is essential. They have over 100 million service records and most of them are paper, not electronic, so they do need as much information as possible to find the right one.

[stratasfan]

Ditto what Kimo said. I helped a friend, whose Dad served in the Battle of the Bulge, and she not only got his records, but she got replacement medals for everything he earned. Took a little over a year to get them back, but it was very nice. She brought everything over and I put it in a display, and it was super, even being new medals.

 

Only the patch and collar devices were added, but here is what she got . . .

 

 

They even sent the CIB and the Marksmanship badge.

 

We just filled out the standard form and made sure to request replacement medals in the "other" line. She also wrote a quick FOIA letter to go with it. Didn't take long, and I would really recommend that for your friend's Dad!

[pfrost]

I think that aviation cadets were enlisted while they went through flight training. Once they graduated from the primary flight training they were promoted to either flight officer or Lt. While they went through basic and primary flight school, they were also trained in aerial gunnery. IF they washed out, were injured, or changed their mind and left the flight school before they were commissioned, they would remain enlisted men--sometimes they stayed in the USAAF other times they didn't. In some cases, if they washed out of pilot training they could be routed into navigator or bombardier schools, depending on their aptitude and the needs of the USAAF.

 

So, you sometimes seeing officers wearing gunner wings, and enlisted aviation cadets wearing pilot wings. More than likely because they were in a transition phase.

 

Looking at the wing, this pattern is frequently seen being worn in early (1940-41).

 

If I had to guess, I would say that this is a photo taken right after he graduated from his primary flight training school and was wearing his new insignia along with his old enlistedman's insignia. Perhaps some time later he washed out of his advanced training and reverted to his enlisted grade while he served out his time during WWII.

 

P

[pfrost]

Here is a thread on that style wing.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/241220-new-very-scarce-tri-tiered-fletching-1939-1940-wing/?hl=%2B1940+%2Bwings

 

Also, it looks like he is wearing one of the training command DUI's on his cap.

 

Makes me even more think he is a shiny new pilot who just pinned on his wings and officers BOS for a picture.

[Mr.Jerry]

Thanks Guys!

I tried to see if she had his DD-214, as that would help, she said he made Mst. Sgt.in 18 months(?!?!?), so that flight Sgt. rank may have something to do with that.

He was with the 13th AAF in the Philippines.

I will try and research this one further, and suggest she do the Govt medals thing too.

But the general consensus is that those are pilot wings.

[Kimo]

If she does not have his DD-214, that is the main document that she can get from that first address. Of course you may help her in making her request, but only a vet's next of kin and direct descendants are able to request them. All of the information on what he would have worn on his uniform the day plus more on his assignments and promotions would be on that DD-214. The thought that he might have been enlisted and gone directly to flight school and then had that photo taken the day he graduated is a possibility. His mash up of insignia combined with his having no ribbons make that a plausible explanation.

[Lee Ragan]

WWII Army aviation cadets wore OFFICERS uniforms with officer collar insignia. Cadets were ranked above enlisted men but below Flight Officers and Commissioned Officers. There was no way he could have officially wore the collar brass combination he has in that photo. And another thing, when guys graduated from pilot, navigator and bombardier training, they got their commissions the same day was they were awarded their wings.

[pfrost]

I once met a veteran who had been a civilian flight instructor early in the war. He trained RAF pilots for (IIRC) Riddle Aeronautics and then for the USAAF cadets in basic flight training. According to him, after Pearl Harbor, he kept trying to enlist, but they wouldn't let him, as his job training pilots was too important. Then about mid-war he quit Riddle and managed to enlist--but not, apparently, into the USAAF. I was a bit confused about the time line, but it seemed that he was a PFC for a bit of time before someone recognized his skill set and he was commissioned and rated as a service pilot. While he was an enlisted man, he didn't wear his wings, because he didn't have the military rating as a pilot (despite training military pilots how to fly for about 2 years). He said that the didn't like the service pilot wings because the felt that were kind of a catch all rating given to guys who were "old" civilian pilots. He may have gone to advance training for flying 4-engine aircraft (I've forgotten what he told me). Eventually he was flying fuel over the hump in a converted B-24 and he told me that he HATED the service pilot wing so fought like hell to get his "regular" pilot wing rating. When he was allowed to wear the regular pilot wing, he ditched the service pilot wing. That he was adamant about that because I asked him if he still had them.

He also told me that he had a friend who was flying with him, but developed vertigo. He resigned his commission, went in to the infantry as an enlisted man and was KIA.

It is a cool picture and I am sure there is some interesting history there.

P

[Kimo]

All of these speculations are reasons why this person really needs to go through the process of requesting a copy the vet's official record via that website I listed. It would explain everything and remove all doubt as to whether he really did earn his wings and if so what ratings he had, along with his assignments, medals, etc.