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What branch of service are these from


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#1 manayunkman

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 08:58 PM

The basic material is blue jean denim. The red chevrons are machine embroidered. Can anyone ID these please ?

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#2 patches

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Posted 22 October 2011 - 09:02 PM

The basic material is blue jean denim. The red chevrons are machine embroidered. Can anyone ID these please ?


No idea what these would be for but rest assured they are nether U.S. Army or U.S. Marine Corps, from any time period in the 20th Century. One might say they where worn on those blue denim work uniforms of the WWI early WWII period , but the wearing of any badges on these uniforms where prohibited, plus these ranks are not in keeping with any style I know of, in the early 20th century rank for NCOs did come in brance colors of this newer small size, but they where solid colored chevrons and not voided center outlines, the use of the blue jean materierl does seem odd.

Edited by patches, 22 October 2011 - 09:09 PM.


#3 canadian bacon

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 01:04 AM

im thinking something off a a novelty jacket
cheers michael

#4 Justin B.

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:34 AM

I believe those are US Army, Coast Artillery Corps, worn on the blue denim working jacket. Emerson's Chevrons gives the dates of authorization as 1910-1918. Also authorized for QM Corps (buff stitching), Army Service School Detachments (green) and Signal Corps (double row of stitching, orange and white).

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#5 J_Andrews

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:35 AM

Weren't these for wear on blue denim fatigue dress prior to WWI??? IIRC they most frequent were in red for Coast Arty, which wore the denims on a daily basis and needed NCO distinctions to tell them apart from the sweaty swinish louts who WERE expected to WORK.

#6 atb

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 07:09 AM

Weren't these for wear on blue denim fatigue dress prior to WWI??? IIRC they most frequent were in red for Coast Arty, which wore the denims on a daily basis and needed NCO distinctions to tell them apart from the sweaty swinish louts who WERE expected to WORK.

Yes, they are and there is no mystery or difficulty about finding information on them. As "Justin B." says, see Emerson's book, Chevrons. Contemporary Army publications also show these type of rank chevrons. "Patches" should have used less absolute language in his response. Just because one has never seen something does not not mean it never was, especially in dealing with this insignia stuff.

Edited by atb, 23 October 2011 - 07:11 AM.


#7 manayunkman

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 10:17 AM

These were never sewn to a jacket and they are mint. Are they rare ?

#8 manayunkman

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 10:18 AM

I don't know about Emerson's book. Is it still in print ?

Edited by manayunkman, 23 October 2011 - 10:21 AM.


#9 Justin B.

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 10:32 AM

I don't know about Emerson's book. Is it still in print ?


No, and I count myself extremely lucky to have found a copy for "only" $100 a few years back. However, the author recently started a website with a lot of good information:
http://www.emersoninsignia.net/

I can't find a picture of the chain stitch-outlined denim chevrons, but the Signal Corps version is mentioned on page 7 here:
http://www.emersonin.....s summary.pdf

See also:
www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15734
www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87637

Sorry, I don't know how rare they are. They are not common to me, but I am not a chevron collector!

Justin B.

Edited by Justin B., 23 October 2011 - 10:33 AM.


#10 patches

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:46 PM

Yes, they are and there is no mystery or difficulty about finding information on them. As "Justin B." says, see Emerson's book, Chevrons. Contemporary Army publications also show these type of rank chevrons. "Patches" should have used less absolute language in his response. Just because one has never seen something does not not mean it never was, especially in dealing with this insignia stuff.


Thank you sir, I stand corrected by all, I was totaly unaware of this type, I know that solid colored chervorns where worn during this period, and I thought that wear of badges on work uniforms was not allowed, for there age they are in splended condition, I am aware of the emerson book and would love to get a copy, but it is out of print and I think the last time I checked it was quite a sum of money for a copy.

Edited by patches, 23 October 2011 - 12:50 PM.


#11 36-tex

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 12:52 PM

I currently have a chevron like this in my collection. As stated above, they were worn for a few years on the work denim fatigues. Not rare, but not something you see that often either. You have a nice, mint pair!

#12 atb

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 01:10 PM

Here are the two red chain stitched on blue denim artillery chevrons that I have managed to find, PFC and Corporal.
Blue_denim_chevrons.jpg

#13 patches

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 01:57 PM

Here are the two red chain stitched on blue denim artillery chevrons that I have managed to find, PFC and Corporal.
Blue_denim_chevrons.jpg


I've checked out the links that Justin B put up, and seen the others here to include the ones manyunkman posted for this topic and now your contribution, the one thing that they all have in common is that they are unissued examples, could it be that the avilabily of such mint examples indicate that the type was really not worn to any degree and this might be the reason that they would be more avilable I this condition. Just a thought, I am well aware that collectors will want the best condition possiable, but so far these tend to be all unused looking.

Edited by patches, 23 October 2011 - 02:01 PM.


#14 Justin B.

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:07 PM

I am aware of the emerson book and would love to get a copy, but it is out of print and I think the last time I checked it was quite a sum of money for a copy.


I hear you, I looked for years before getting lucky as noted above. It is pretty easy to get a copy on inter-library loan, though.

The book says that the Coast Artillery changed from brown canvas to blue denim working uniforms around 1908 and the Philadelphia QM Depot began to try different types of chevrons for that material. The best results were found by simply outlining the designs with machine-sewn chain stitching. The QM and Signal Corps (for the Air Service) followed but in WW1 it was decided to simplify things by using OD insignia on the denim jackets.

Justin B.

#15 patches

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 02:16 PM

I hear you, I looked for years before getting lucky as noted above. It is pretty easy to get a copy on inter-library loan, though.

The book says that the Coast Artillery changed from brown canvas to blue denim working uniforms around 1908 and the Philadelphia QM Depot began to try different types of chevrons for that material. The best results were found by simply outlining the designs with machine-sewn chain stitching. The QM and Signal Corps (for the Air Service) followed but in WW1 it was decided to simplify things by using OD insignia on the denim jackets.

Justin B.


Thanks if I remember the price on amazon was well over $ 200, E-bay too. It will be one of these books that one finds at a cheap price only by accident say at a used book store, or any kind of street/curb side seller, flea market etc, with the person selling it has no idea that it is a RARE, OUT OF PRINT BOOK.

#16 Gil Sanow

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 03:51 PM

GOOD NEWS! I talked to Bill Emerson at the ASMIC meet a few weeks back, and he told me that a second edition, larger than the first, with more info, is finished and currently looking for a publisher. I urge patience, but grab it when it comes out, for sure.

G

#17 patches

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 06:41 PM

GOOD NEWS! I talked to Bill Emerson at the ASMIC meet a few weeks back, and he told me that a second edition, larger than the first, with more info, is finished and currently looking for a publisher. I urge patience, but grab it when it comes out, for sure.

G


That is good news gil, thanks for giving this info.

#18 vzemke

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 07:16 PM

GOOD NEWS! I talked to Bill Emerson at the ASMIC meet a few weeks back, and he told me that a second edition, larger than the first, with more info, is finished and currently looking for a publisher. I urge patience, but grab it when it comes out, for sure.

G



Thats really great news (even though I already shelled out $150 for a used copy about 3 years ago). The 6 million dollar question however is: will it be in COLOR?

-Vance

#19 patches

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Posted 23 October 2011 - 08:16 PM

Thats really great news (even though I already shelled out $150 for a used copy about 3 years ago). The 6 million dollar question however is: will it be in COLOR?

-Vance


Yes, he does not have his books in color, I use to have the one on collar insignia,I got in the late 90s, a mighty fine big fat book that was of immense help and phenomenally interresting, it only draw back was it was not in color nor was any of it partially in color as most books of this type generally are, but It was a massive undertaking for Mr Emerson and who can fault him if he had to keep costs down by featuring a black and white format only. so given that the first chevrons but was the same as the collar book, in B/W, Hopefully this new and updated one will have some color plates, if this is the case I for one will have no trouble with paying a little extra.

#20 Steve B.

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Posted 24 October 2011 - 07:49 AM

I got a used copy of his chevrons book a few years ago and it was $300!!! A LOT of money for a small book - heck, that's a lot of money for a book of any size!

His book an Army marksmanship badges has a several pages of color photos in it, but most of it is black & white. Like the chevrons, I had no idea of the variety used by the Army throughout the years!

Edited by Steve B., 24 October 2011 - 07:50 AM.


#21 manayunkman

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:51 PM

Keep us posted on this book. I want to get it. Are these rare ( they must be ) ?? Valuable ??

#22 hhbooker2

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 10:05 PM

Keep us posted on this book. I want to get it. Are these rare ( they must be ) ?? Valuable ??


:think: Ask Colonel Emerson when will he republish an updated CHEVRONS book? You can write to him! :thumbsup:

#23 manayunkman

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 11:40 PM

:think: Ask Colonel Emerson when will he republish an updated CHEVRONS book? You can write to him! :thumbsup:


I'm on it !


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