Patch collecting

[48MMS]

Disclaimer: I am voicing an opinion. If you feel the need to belittle me, then put that were it belongs, in the toilet. If you have a constructive viewpoint, please do respond. And for the record, I have been collecting on and off for nearly 30 years. I AM A NOVICE. I do not claim to be or am I an expert on patches. I am happy with my small collection and pertainent to part two of this thread, I display images for reference.

 

Part 1: I was reading the Recon Arkansas thread and it still amazes me how collectors can go so overboard on the authenticity of a patch. I would say that unless you are selling it, trading it or donating it, what does it matter? I have been following various militaria forums for the past 7 years and this issue seems to rise up every day (or so it seems). If I am happy with my collection, then who are you to "rain" on my parade? If I ask for education on a patch, then I can almost understand the need of all the "experts" to chime in and "set the record straight". As for authenticity, how do "we" elevate ourselfs to expert status? Unless you were there, wore the patch or have undisputable photo evidence, then you don't know if it's real or not. When I was at Eielson AFB, the 18th TFS patch was so scarce, that one pilot had copies made in Korea. Horrible renditions, but worn by several pilots nevertheless. Today if that patch was to surface, I have NO doubt that it be labeled a "reunion" or fake patch. Fact is, it was worn. I also realize that you can say, use of blacklight, manufacture or imperfections in design, but you don't know for sure. I don't even know that every patch in your collection (or mine) is real. Do I simply trust your word? If you go to USAFPatches.com. look up the 499th Air Refueling Wing in the gallery. It is labeled a "reunion" piece. Yet I would challange the webmaster to prove it. Because it wasn't made official, it is a reunion piece? He wasn't there. It was authorized at the base level*. It is also my understanding that the 59th FIS was never an "official" patch, yet I have seen pics of people wearing them, as well as the emblem on both F-94 and F-89 aircraft. The F-111F Warsaw Pact Central Heating patch was never "Official", but was worn.

 

Part 2: I catch some flak because I do not watermark my patch scans. This makes it easier for someone to make copies and flood the market with repros. This practice seems to generate a ton of negative feelings, and yet once again, why? Don't buy them. If you are a new/young collector, ask forums like this for opinions and then make your own judgement. If I wanted to, I could simply spend a modest amount of money and time and tap into the resources at Maxwell AFB (AFHRA) and make all the repros I wanted. So all the fuss over protecting pics is kind of weak in its intent. I collect for the historical importance and the fun it generates. However if you claim to do the same, and choose not to display your collection, and hide behind the repro aurgument, I would ask what is your real reason? Afraid the others will know the extent of your collection. Maybe they're point out the fakes? I for one enjoy looking at all patches from all Branches. It is very fasinating how units have adopted the various designs, and more so to learn the histories involved.

 

Thank you.

 

* It is my understanding from a USAF member I have TOTAL trust in, who was there, that the base did contract production of this patch. If I also recall, it used the design of the 4050th Air Refueling Wing. This is NOT an attempt to attack the credibility of th aforementioned webmaster. I will point out that several patches on that site have via extensive research been properly redesignated, the 37th OMS was infact the 307th OMS; the 55th MMS was in fact the 52nd MMS and the 4133rd MMS was infact the 4133rd Combat Defense Squadron. All three thanks to my research and help from the AFHRA.

[Sabrejet]

Well said 48MMS! Schadenfruede is a German word often used as a loanword in English...literally it means "deriving pleasure from the misfortune of others". I've no doubt that sometimes this is the motivating factor behind some critical posts of the type you describe. (Just my 2p's worth!)

 

Sabrejet

[civvy]

I 100%,no...150% agree with you. I have felt the same way for a long time,thus why i did not until recently join the site,instead of "lurk".

 

Unfortunately though, the people who the post applies to, will not think it is them,think it is the "other guys" problem, and this will go right over their big, self-professed "expert's" heads, and I bet you will see it happen again.

 

Let me just add...what really kills me,is the "experts" who never served a day in the Military, the worst of the worst are the "Elite Unit" collectors-SF particularly, who,although never served,think they know every single intricacy,how everything from uniforms to equipment were done... to the point of obnoxiousness, and I have seen when someone who HAS served in a SF/Ranger unit comes and corrects them,and the "expert" then argues with them, saying that they are mistaken,or dont know how "X" was done!

 

All in All 48MMS, Very, VERY well said :thumbsup:

[48MMS]

Sabrejet, I often wonder if this "hobby" is nothing more than a power game with some. You are so correct, I feel people do get a kick out putting others in their proverbally place.

[Bob Hudson]

I think much of this applies to any type of collectible whether it's military patches or mom's patchwork quilts: there are debates that have no conclusive answer and at some point faith or gut feeling has to kick in. Certainly we have seen since the advent of the internet and forums such as this one that some old assumptions don't hold water as folks from all over are able to compare notes and find that the abnormal is more normal than we thought. And we should have learned by now that it is harder to say for certain that something is "impossible," but some will cling to the old notions anyway and we need to just roll our eyes and put their rants in context and not spend a lot of psychic energy trying to convert them.

[Jack's Son]

I have only just read this thread, so believe me this is "gut feeling".

It is IMPRESSIVE that with only three posts, the nail seems to have been hit on the head,

we have agreement!

This in itself is remarkable.

I am not a patch collector, just interested in any "good clean debate", this seems to have a good start.

 

My hats off to you all............good luck!

[tsakers85]

I agree with this completely. I belong to another organization and their is nothing worse than the "experts" on their soap boxes...

[Sabrejet]

We also have to bear in mind that we are looking at 2D images on a monitor. Colour settings and picture quality can differ significantly from one to another. Consequently, unless there is some obvious indicator of authenticity..or not..it can be very difficult to make that definitive judgement, short of seeing the piece in the flesh, holding it and, on occasion, smelling it too!

 

Sabrejet

[JCFalkenbergIII]

I too am just a collector and will never make a claim to being an "Expert". I have made mistakes and will always take corrections and new info with good humor and thanks. But I have seen both the "Experts" and those who claim not to be "Experts" with the "Holier then Thou" attitudes equally. So I take everything with a grain of salt as this is the Internet. And it happens with collecting and most other types of "Discussion" groups and forums. You get used to it. Robert

[48MMS]

Two quick points. One, I through members of the USAFPatches forum was responsible for those patch corrects, sorry, I'm in my "PC" mode today. As for the comment about people who are not experts but, but "holier than thou", if that was directed at me, be a little more of a man (or woman) and direct it to me. I do come off as such, it's called a weakest known as being human. I apologize as my point is simple, but being simple doesn't always hit home; this is a hobby. Do not take it upon yourself to correct others, unless they ask for it. Simple. It's a hobby. I guess too that we can use that grain of salt phrase, but in the end I should realize that there is no perfect point and the real trick is not choking on that grain of salt

[Capt.Confederacy]

Do not take it upon yourself to correct others, unless they ask for it. Simple. It's a hobby. I guess too that we can use that grain of salt phrase, but in the end I should realize that there is no perfect point and the real trick is not choking on that grain of salt

 

Amen to that. If someone is happy with a patch, people ought to let them continue to be happy with it. If a person asks an opinion about a patch either it's been purchased or before it's been purchased, then people ought to give an honest opinion at that point.

[pac_bob]

"Part 1: I was reading the Recon Arkansas thread and it still amazes me how collectors can go so overboard on the authenticity of a patch. I would say that unless you are selling it, trading it or donating it, what does it matter?"

 

I agree with your fundamental point, which is that one should collect what one wants, and it's nobody else's business. However, I noticed that you left out "buying it" in the above statement. The unfortunate fact is that there are people out there scheming to defraud the gullible, particularly when it comes to easily faked items in areas where the "originals" can cost an arm and a leg. Granted that the discussion can go overboard and serve as a sounding board for blowhards and self-appointed experts, but reading their posts (along with those of people whose opinion you respect) is the price one has to pay in order, as you point out, to make your own judgments in deciding what to add to the collection.

 

Bob

[blkjack07]

... Granted that the discussion can go overboard and serve as a sounding board for blowhards and self-appointed experts, but reading their posts (along with those of people whose opinion you respect) is the price one has to pay in order, as you point out, to make your own judgments in deciding what to add to the collection.

 

Bob

Roger that.

[Randy]

Hi Al-

We've known each other a long time. While much of what you said is correct, there are a couple of things. The patch you cited on the USAF site is indeed a reunion patch. Close examination shows it is computer made, but this unit existed from 63-66 before computer patches. He's not saying the design never existed, just that this patch is recently made and not original to the period it represents. Not trying to correct anybody, just pointing it out. A lot of people debate on that site as a way to get it right, not trying to put anyone down. There's been a ton of missed IDs corrected as a result, and everyone benefits. I have one collecting criteria- it's a piece of history, or it's not. That's all I use to add to my collection, pieces of history. I don't worry about other folks unless we're dealing for something, then it needs to meet my one standing criteria. Hang in there!

Randy

[JCFalkenbergIII]

As for the comment about people who are not experts but, but "holier than thou", if that was directed at me, be a little more of a man (or woman) and direct it to me. I do come off as such, it's called a weakest known as being human. I apologize as my point is simple, but being simple doesn't always hit home; this is a hobby. Do not take it upon yourself to correct others, unless they ask for it. Simple. It's a hobby. I guess too that we can use that grain of salt phrase, but in the end I should realize that there is no perfect point and the real trick is not choking on that grain of salt

 

Wasn't directed at you at all . And trust me you would know if I direct comments at you . Just an observation from all the other sites I have been on for years. I have seen both equally. Both exist wherever you go. I have even left some due to some who thought they were 'Experts" and those who didn't . Robert

[snake36bravo]

Some very well stated points. As a member of multiple militaria forums and a serious collector, to the point of a divorce under my belt due to my collecting, I have met or had discussions with some wonderful people. Unfortunately I have also had my fair share of run-ins with the A-Types, knowledge hoarders or otherwise unfriendly. Whether on a forum or at a show the experience is never fun. These are the people who seem to enjoy trying to make you look like an idiot and themselves out to be idols. I sometimes wonder if they even listen to themselves and how they sound.

 

I avoided the back and forth on the RT Arkansas thread simply because as my wife would put this, 'Sometimes all you guys do is whip it out and go back and forth about whose is bigger. My helmet is better, my patch is better. That things not real!'. I've qouted her because she really says that to me. Often. Crude yes but very succinct and observant on her part. The thread became tedious to take. I for one am sick of cheap charlie as a term. What's next for OEF-OIF, cheap hajji? Cheap Ali? A certain scene involving a Desert Eagle and replica firearms from the movie Snatch came to mind.

 

Something that comes up often for me is the concept of this as a hobby. Is it really anymore? The internet opened up a market for militaria where before it was just at a club, catalog or show level. Insane money is being paid for things that were most likely picked up for a $20 or $50 bill at a garage sale. People have actually been killed or robbed for their collections. There is a local report in our newspaper of a Gulf War Veteran who had his house broken into and the only thing that was taken were his medals. When a shot up half baled helmet reaches 10K something inside me is revolted by it. Dealers are happy I am sure. They are in the business of buying your collection at a fraction of cost and reaping the profit. You know this and so do I. The balance on what is hobby and what is business these days seems more confused than ever.

 

Being published means nothing in terms of being an expert but what being published does to some people is a little unnerving. To be fair not every author is affected. Taking all that time to get the material together is a labor of love and there seems to be a sort of paternal thing that happens in peoples minds when they give birth to a published project. A certain ownership forms followed by a my kid is better syndrome. Mistakes can and very often do get made in publishing. So much is just regurgitated information. For some of the newer collectors here there are references out there with fakes in them shown as originals. In my latest collector catalog they have an Austrian camouflage jacket marked as Waffen-SS dot pattern. Doh!

 

You can ask all day for just a common amount of decency but it all comes down to how we were raised individually.

 

I have spoken and my words are iron

[Spike]

"Let me just add...what really kills me,is the "experts" who never served a day in the Military, the worst of the worst are the "Elite Unit" collectors-SF particularly, who,although never served,think they know every single intricacy,how everything from uniforms to equipment were done... to the point of obnoxiousness, and I have seen when someone who HAS served in a SF/Ranger unit comes and corrects them,and the "expert" then argues with them, saying that they are mistaken,or dont know how "X" was done!"

 

While I understand this comment, it's a bit harsh. I imagine that 90% of the experts and historians NEVER were involved directly with the subject they study. Also, people who DID serve never really paid any attention to the things they did or used from equipment to uniforms. It was JUST another uniform or piece of gear that they were told to use. It's the people that WERE'NT in the service that tend to notice things that those who served didn't pay any attention to or just took for granted. I am one of these people that didn't serve. I research SEALs during the VN war. I look at things with different eyes, therefore, a different perspective. I will notice things in a photo that the SEAL I'm showing it to will most likely shrug his shoulders, or maybe say he didn't remember using that or just say" that's what guys in our platoon did". If this is your TRUE feeling well, that's YOUR feeling, but these people you detest are the ones who are TRYING to get the story/history right and sometimes that means paying attention to details and items that most don't give a sh!t about.

[Jim Baker]

Part 1: I was reading the Recon Arkansas thread and it still amazes me how collectors can go so overboard on the authenticity of a patch. I would say that unless you are selling it, trading it or donating it, what does it matter? I have been following various militaria forums for the past 7 years and this issue seems to rise up every day (or so it seems). If I am happy with my collection, then who are you to "rain" on my parade? If I ask for education on a patch, then I can almost understand the need of all the "experts" to chime in and "set the record straight". As for authenticity, how do "we" elevate ourselfs to expert status? Unless you were there, wore the patch or have undisputable photo evidence, then you don't know if it's real or not.

 

I have seen people post patches they have paid good money for that are clearly fakes. They are posting more or less for show and tell value. They are not asking for advise, selling, or trading. They clearly believe their patch is real. As a forum, shouldn't we look out for each other and let these people know they have a bad patch? If nothing else so they may get their money back and learn something. Or, should we say nothing and let the poor guy or gal lose/waste their money and maybe have newer collectors also thinking this fake patch is real and possibly fall victim to another shady character. I believe if we ignore a bad patch to avoid "raining on someones parade" we are doing them and our forum a disservice.

 

As far as authenticity, there are indeed characteristics that set the real and fake patches far apart. There are many people familiar with contruction techniques (textile manufacturing) that only need to know the era of a patch to tell you if it's possibly real or an out right fake. Simply put, some patches CANNOT be real based on their age. And yes, some people can look at a patch and tell you these things.

 

I think the real issue here is attitude. In all facets of life there are people with bad or just plain crappy attitudes and outlooks on life. Go with those you trust and like for daily interactions, but also remember, some of those old crabby farts do know exactly what they are talking about. Gleen what information you can and be happy about it. No one says you have to eat, drink, or sleep with any of them.

[disneydave]

I'm an expert in Disney WW II. So what? It's true. I don't brag about it...much anyhow.

 

I share my info with anyone who asks questions. I post info here in the Disney sub-forum and I have two Disney related blogs - one on war items and one on vintage 1930s items.

 

I have helped high school kids and college students with projects, and have even sent info to university professors. Every month my email inbox is filled with numerous questions from people who have happened across my blogs - what's this worth? How rare is this item? What's the history on this piece? Most times when i respond to their questions, I do not even get a simple thank you in reply. But that's okay, to a point I guess. I'm just happy to share my knowledge.

 

I certainly don't put people down and I don't diminish other collectors or their collections, just because they collect something different than what I collect. People collect what they like and what they can afford.

 

If someone says I made a mistake with some bit of info I've posted on my blog, and they can convince me I was mistaken, I'll correct my post. If I see someone mis-state some info on an item they are discussing, I will politely offer my opinion. In this case, most people have been thankful for the corrected info, or extra bit of info I've supplied. I guess it's all how you word your response.

 

My expertise and knowledge were responsible for me being asked to be a Consultant, Special projects, with the Walt Disney Family Museum at the Presidio in San Francisco, and for that I am extremely thankful.

 

I know you are talking about patches here, so I apologize if you all don't think this was pertinent. I guess I just think there's nothing wrong with being an expert, as long as you're not a jerk about it.

[JCFalkenbergIII]

I guess I just think there's nothing wrong with being an expert, as long as you're not a jerk about it.

 

Exactly :thumbsup: . Robert

[noexpert]

I'll admit that I've been a "lurker" for a long time too. I've collected patches for many years and learned a lot from a number of generous people and a lot of mistakes.

 

I'd never think of getting involved in a discussion like the Arkansas string because it's out of my league. I can probably handle myself in a local barfight, but I'm not climbing into the ring with professional heavyweights.

 

I always learn something from these discussions. Yeah sometimes they get nit-picky to the point where your eyes cross, and that's when it's time for me to go somewhere else. Those discussions involve patches I'm never going to see in real life anyway...at least 90% of the time that's the case, and these guys are arguing fine points among themselves over patches of which are maybe 12 known examples of in the world.

 

To me a reunion patch may be some big ol' bullion thing that was obviously meant to be sewn onto a blazer. To someone else it may be a close copy that was made up a few years after a war or a unit disbanded and looks and feels like the original, but ain't and to someone else it may be anything that wasn't literally worn in the field or made in the original batch. Period, out-of-period, etc, so what, eye of the beholder. If you like it, it adds to your collection, and it's not a fake, what do you care if someone says that the stitching style is from two weeks after the war ended? And if I KNOW something is right, and somebody tells me that no one ever wore it, made it, whatever... well fine. They're wrong, I'm right. End of story. Life goes on.

 

On the other hand, why join a serious forum on militaria discussions if you're not expecting serious discussions on militaria? It's important for those of us that are serious but not rabid to have the guys who are rabid (or they'd probably prefer extremely dedicated) watching over the hobby because for all of their craziness - let's face it, they make life harder for the fakers, and they do help the rest of us pause for a moment before buying blindly.

 

What I do know is that there are a lot of good folks who belong to this forum with tons of knowledge to dispense and who share it freely... You don't have to touch a burning match to know it's hot and you don't have to have been in the service or in combat to have expertise on uniforms or insignia. I have a good friend in this forum who has written several books and numerous articles on such, and I have great respect for his knowledge. On the other hand, though I have none of his technical knowledge on the subject, I've been able to give him some suggestions on how GI's adapted and personalized uniforms from personal experience that he's found helpful.

 

And sometimes there are going to be disputes...

 

And sometimes, because we're dealing with soldier stuff, the problem is that soldiers (or marines, sailors or airmen/persons) just go ahead and make up their own rules and, as a result, no matter how expert any of us are it's not going to matter, because some GI or small group of GI's decided to do things their own way and damn the machine - those disputes are never going to be resolved no matter how many threads we burn, or blacklights we use, books we write or read, or middle fingers we throw at each other.

 

And I always keep reminding myself that the three hardest words in the English language to put side by side are "I don't know."

 

I love this hobby and this forum is great...the only problem with is that I'm spending so much time here my wife is convinced that all I'm doing these days is downloading porno.

[gwb123]

What drives an extended discussion, civil or otherwise?

 

Money: Like it or not, there are some big bucks being thrown around in this hobby. I had an SF collector tell me that authenticated SF Recon Team patches are being sold for thousands of dollars each! That kind of spending is going to bring out some strong opinions as to authenticity no matter what collecting field we are talking about.

 

Mythology: There are way too many myths and misconceptions out there in the collecting world. Many of the items that people collect and hold dear are often undocumented as to their origin, and some strange and imaginative tales end up being told. Sometimes it is tough to sort the stories out, and it is often hard to persuade someone that a "truth" they may have learned may in fact be incorrect.

 

It's a little disconcerting to see the word "expert" thrown around here like it is a dirty word. For all the time I have spent on the Forum I can only recall a handful of times where anyone ever used that term to describe themselves. It usually comes up when someone disagrees with an opinion that has been expressed, and they decry the other party as a "self-proclaimed expert". In most cases, no such proclamation was ever made.

 

Too many times we have had the opinion of collectors with either years of experience or detailed knowledge in a given area is accused of "elitism" because the other party in the conversation simply did not want to listen to them. This, despite the fact that the accused can provide dates, times, places, photos and literary references. Sometimes it seems the more information you provide, the more likely you are to be called an "elitist insider self proclaimed expert who is seeking to control the market for their own purposes". After a reception like that, who would really want to offer their opinion on here ever again?

 

But on the flipside, let me be clear... there is never a justification for an experienced collector (expert if you prefer) talking down to a novice collector.

[JCFalkenbergIII]

It's a little disconcerting to see the word "expert" thrown around here like it is a dirty word. For all the time I have spent on the Forum I can only recall a handful of times where anyone ever used that term to describe themselves. It usually comes up when someone disagrees with an opinion that has been expressed, and they decry the other party as a "self-proclaimed expert". In most cases, no such proclamation was ever made.

 

Too many times we have had the opinion of collectors with either years of experience or detailed knowledge in a given area is accused of "elitism" because the other party in the conversation simply did not want to listen to them. This, despite the fact that the accused can provide dates, times, places, photos and literary references. Sometimes it seems the more information you provide, the more likely you are to be called an "elitist insider self proclaimed expert who is seeking to control the market for their own purposes". After a reception like that, who would really want to offer their opinion on here ever again?

 

But on the flipside, let me be clear... there is never a justification for an experienced collector (expert if you prefer) talking down to a novice collector.

 

IMO its not the declaration of someone being an "Expert" per se. And I for one certainly don't always use it in the negative. Far from it. Its the attitude and wording that some use that others perceive as being from someone who tries to appear to be as knowledgeable as an "Expert" would or could be. Or possibly "Elitist" too. Especially when it is negative and demeaning. I for one bow to the knowledge and experience in quite a few members here and they have my respect too :thumbsup: . But as I have said before I have seen the same types of attitude and wording from those who are perceived to be and those who claim not to be. Robert

[Johnny Signor]

as far as patches go I take this line about them, once the first one is made all the rest are "reproductions" only the very first one is the "true" "original" .

And if you're collecting just for the fun so what if they're real or not real, chewing your nails over if one is and is not to me just isn't worth the hassle and takes the fun out of it . And if you don't like the price of a patch pass on it,another wil come around, if not get a repro at least you have one.

If you want to be a hair splitter about real verses repro more power to you, unless you're a museum who really cares in the long run , collectig is a hobby and I think the ones sooooo worried about "authenticity" are those that really intend to sell them eventually and recap what they put into them and aren't true collectors in the sense of it just being a fun and interesting hobby.

Even the "Best" are eventually fooled into a repro sooner/later ,did your would crash to a stop, I didn't think so, life still goes on and so does the "Hobby".

[48MMS]

Great replies! Thanks to everyone who weighted in, very interesting points indeed!