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looks like a model 1930


-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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It is way earlier than 1930, I'd say post WW1. I have found these attached to hats dated as early as 1924. Detail will vary as the dies got worn. Some have great detail while others have less deep lines. You will find them in bronze, brass, copper, and different alloys.


Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
[email protected]
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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This will be interesting...... many are convinced these are a 1930 model. Anyone?



The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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I will see if I can find any dated pictures of it being worn prior to 1930, I received the service hat of a fellow who served 1924-1926 and this model is attached to his 1925 dated service cap. It was an out of the woodwork acquisition that probably wasnt monkied with. I had always thought of them earlier than 1930, proof will be in some photographic evidence. I am slim on the enlisted photos of that era, but will check again.

 

Mike


Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
[email protected]
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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Mike,

 

I'm guessing you simply have this emblem confused with the earlier emblems that started showing up in the supply system, some say, as early as 1918-19. I believe the earlier emblem is most commonly known as the M1922 pattern. The pattern shown here is the cover emblem that was first issued in approximately 1930 with the "gooney" or "droop wing" collar emblems. If you look at the emblem on your cover, I think you will find that it has the ovular head and different wing pattern of the earlier emblems, not this "squared" or "decapitated chicken" looking head. I don't yet have the earlier M1918 or M1922 dress emblem in my collection, but I do for the service covers. Here are the two different types, side by side, and as you can see, two entirely different birds. You might also look at the roller nut on the emblem that goes with your cover. Two completely different types, with the later 1930's pattern having a big, flat roller similar to the collar emblems of the 1930 period and the earlier emblem having the conical type of the early 1900's through 1920's era. My bet is that your emblem has the earlier type roller.

 

I don't have photographic evidence, but I do have the next best thing. Both my service and dress emblems of the 1930 pattern were handed to me by the Marine himself. Chester Tripp enlisted in the Marines, at the ripe old age of 16, in May 1936. He served with both Headquarters Company and Motor Transport Company, 4th Marines in Shanghai from 1937 through 1939. His service emblem below is on the right. The earlier M1918 or M1922 emblem is on the left and Chet's 1936 issue emblem is on the right. I'll post his dress emblem next.

 

s/f,

 

Gary

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Here is Chester's dress emblem from the same period. As I mentioned, he enlisted in May 1936 and he also stated to me that it was an "Old Salt" thing to continue to wear this earlier pattern well into 1939, well after the new, improved M1937 emblems were in the supply system before his discharge.

 

Same type of flat roller on the dress emblem that is found on the service emblem.

 

s/f,

 

Gary

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Here is a photo with the EGA in question...photo dates from c. 1930-31.

marine_056.jpg


Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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Dirk,

 

Super photo showing the exact pattern hat emblem in question, with large "fan" wings and small head. I borrowed your photo and enlarged it to show the "Gooneys" on his collar. Hope you dont mind? What a great colorized shot of this young Marine! Was this photo taken in China?

 

Gary

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Gary: The enlargement looks great....the photo is unmarked, but looks like it is in an American style cardboard frame...hence my desire to ID Asian images, studios, frames etc. IMO most likely a US image taken before he left for China. Glad the image works for the thread.


Always looking for items associated with the China Marines! Visit chinamarine.org

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Gary,

The pattern I am referring to is on the hat below (I hate associating any emblem with a pattern and year as I know it's all going to change soon with the new reference book). The hat is dated 1926. The EGA came on it, I owned this Marine's blues and some other items. His name is Milton Schmidt. It turns out that he served from 1926-1935. Prior to having access to the muster rolls, I believed he served from 1926-1930 based off the dated material. That is what I was basing the earlier time-frame for this EGA off of. I have had many lots in the past with early dates and this emblem that helped solidify my earlier statement of that this pattern was used earlier than 1930. What I am finding with the muster rolls is that many of the dates on items dont jive with the service of an individual. Given the new dates of service that I have for this man it is most likely that he applied it after 1930, and I may be wrong.

 

Mike

 

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Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
[email protected]
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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Mike,

 

Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday afternoon. Got busy watching the Broncos beat the Raiders and then just put off replying. My personal opinion, and that I'm sure of yourself and many other EGA collectors, is there are many known patterns of emblems in existence, regardless of any and all reference opinions. I've seen some obvious errors made in the History and Museums Division's, The Eagle, Globe and Anchor reference, so if the Corps can make mistakes, anyone can. I'm certainly hoping Fred's new, upcoming reference is the cure for many of our questions, but being disappointed in the past because of errors in reference works, I believe it wise to use our own judgement, knowledge and experiences in making calls on known patterns. I would much rather take and believe your opinion on early officer emblems before taking them from a reference that may or may not have been put together by someone who hasn't collected them for years, like many of us here.

 

To me, the emblem that started this thread has historic and period attribution as the type worn between approximately 1930 and 1937, and in some cases, even later. I have no reason to disbelieve Chester Tripp that my dress and service cover emblems were anything but his issue pieces in 1936. With Dirk's great 1930's period photo, that leaves no doubt in my mind as to period on this emblem. There aren't many, if any, other emblems with this wide "fan" wing pattern, so I'm personally 100% convinced of which pattern it is.

 

That is an absolutely beautiful cover you posted, but the first thing that jumped out at me is why does a service cover have a dress emblem? When I was collecting USMC uniforms years ago, this is one of the things I would see quite often from auctions, shows, sales, family and even some geezer vets. Grab the first large emblem you come across and throw it on the hat to make it look better, regardless of if it's the proper emblem for the cover. Heaven only knows how this emblem ended up on his service cover, but my guess is this was his later dress emblem that got attached to his earlier service cover? I'll bet you Jeremiah is just drooling and messing himself looking at that gem of a cover!

 

s/f, Gary


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Gary,

Yes, I know, that seems odd, a dress emblem on a service cap, and it isn't right per Regs, but it came that way right out of the woodwork as they say, and it isnt the first example I have seen like this. It has been on there for a long time that way and I have a feeling this was not done by anyone but the Marine.

 

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I think Marines did this for contrast or aesthetic reasons, take this cap for example.... that EGA does not belong there, but this came from Pvt Amon Pifer's trunk (5th Regiment, France) just that way a couple years ago. It was done by him and worn this way. Note how the EGA matches the color of the brim. This is totally against regs, but you can see why he may have chosen to this. Regardless of the year, the emblem on the cover that was posted earlier was done by the Marine, not a collector, or a family member. I think if we all dig deep in our photo references we will see such practice (dress emblem on service cover).

 

Mike

 

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Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
[email protected]
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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Mike,

 

You certainly could be right about "old time" wear of dress emblems on service covers. I tend to think modern day era, or not too distant past era and know it wouldn't have been tolerated, but it seems many regs were overlooked way back when. Your emblem does look like its been on that cover for a very long time, but I'm still betting it was put on at least 5-10 years after the date in the cover, which would still have been a heck of a long time ago. By chance, does your emblem you pulled off the 1925<? dated cover have a hallmark, i.e., star, dots, bars, etc.? I have yet to find a dress emblem in this pattern with one of these hallmarks, but I believe Steve Sherlock's dad's emblem from the same mid-1930's period has a star mark on the anchor flukes. My service "square heads" have the dot hallmarks, but I'm wondering about your dress emblem?

 

That is a beautiful Bell Crown and yes, the dress emblem does look super on it. I have a couple of EM M1914's and even a set of EM "Gooney" collars that started out as service emblems but have been polished to a high shine some time in their life. I always assumed they were shined for wear on the blues, but now I'm rethinking that. Maybe they were shined for wear on the service uniform? Is your Bell Crown emblem definitely a dress bird, or possibly a shined service bird? From your photo, it looks more bronze than brass, so just wondering.

 

BTW - There is a good USMC GCM thread in the Medals Section. Another one of my side collecting is engraved GCM's, so I'd love to see some of your engraved medals, if you get a chance. Looks like you've got a few there!

 

s/f, Gary


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Gary,

The emblem has always been dress, it still retains about 10-15 of the gilting. One of these days I may get around to the GCMs, still working on photographing all of my EGAs. I only have a few nice GCMs.

 

Mike

 

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Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
[email protected]
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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I have to side with my brother on this one...not only do I have vet acquired P1912 service covers with dress emblems, I also have overseas caps with dress instead of service emblems. And of course the photographic proof..

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LEATHERNECK72


Advanced Collector and USMC Officer --- Paying top dollar for quality Marine Corps antiques. Kepis, shakos, helmets, hats, good conduct medals, old photos, fighting knives, hat and collar emblems, swords, guns, documents. Keep your USMC item in a Marine Corps family! Send me a PM and let me know what you have....

 

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well guys, found all 4 of these yesterday at Raleigh. the top one has soldered wires, I assume for a kepi? trying to figure out what the solder on the bottom is for. looks to have always been this color, brown, not black

 

next three, got them for $4 each, very worn, all missing the screwposts but have the solder. look pretty good to me, but these are the first 1920s I've actually added to my collection. from left to right, you can see less and less finish per example. last one has a bit of black on the anchor, but otherwise looks to have never had a black finish,...hmm...

 

all 4 are stamped and unmarked. thanks for the opinions thumbsup.gif

1920s_Front.JPG


-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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rears

 

notice the chest of the bottom left bird. it has three bumps vertically. only one like that. interesting

1920s_Rear.JPG


-Brig
GySgt/USMC/0369
RSU-Quantico


"FOR OUR TOMORROWS, THEY GAVE THEIR TODAYS"
RIP
Sgt Jesse 'Jeff Nasty' Balthaser
Sgt John P Huling
Cpl Carlos 'Gilo Monster' Gilorozco
Cpl Stephen C 'Socks' Sockalosky
LCpl Joshua A 'Scottie' Scott
LCpl Jason Lee 'Birdman' Frye
LCpl Nicolas B Morrison
LCpl Jon T Hicks
LCpl Osbrany 'Oz' Montes De Oca
Pvt Lewis T D Calapini
'The SOI 5'

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well guys, found all 4 of these yesterday at Raleigh. the top one has soldered wires, I assume for a kepi? trying to figure out what the solder on the bottom is for. looks to have always been this color, brown, not black

 

next three, got them for $4 each, very worn, all missing the screwposts but have the solder. look pretty good to me, but these are the first 1920s I've actually added to my collection. from left to right, you can see less and less finish per example. last one has a bit of black on the anchor, but otherwise looks to have never had a black finish,...hmm...

 

all 4 are stamped and unmarked. thanks for the opinions thumbsup.gif

 

Tim,

 

The bottom left emblem is actually the M1930 pattern with 3-dot hallmark, discussed a little more in this thread:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...?showtopic=8445

 

The other three emblems are the earlier pattern that started showing up in the supply system, some say, as early as 1918-1919. Many refer to this pattern emblem as being the M1922. I'm really anticipating the new reference book in the works by Fred Bruier to see which year designation he assigns to these earlier emblems, because it's been a nagging question mark for more than a few collectors. Anyway, you can see that the ovular heads, different wing pattern and more rounded anchor flukes on these three are different from the M1930 pattern with square head and really pointy anchor flukes.

 

Missing screw posts are just a fact of life with both of these types. It seems that an inferior lead solder was used during the 1920's and 1930's and has deteriorated to the point that just by screwing the roller down too much on the backing plates of many of these will make the screw posts pop out of the solder. I learned the hard way with an M1930 service emblem by doing what I just said would happen and the big drawback to having a screw post resoldered is it will destroy any finish the emblem may have had, i.e., painted finish, patinaed finish, etc, from the heat it takes to melt lead solder. Another thing I have noticed with these two different types is, the earlier emblems are usually found with black painted finishes to match the black finishes of the M1920 collar emblems and the later emblems are either found with brown painted finishes or naked bronze finishes to match the bronze "Gooneys" they were intended to be worn with. This isn't an absolute, though, and both types can be found with the opposite finishes, but not very often.

 

As for the soldered prongs on the one emblem? It was late enough in the game for this emblem to have had a screw post for attaching, so my guess is the prongs were added after the screw post popped out. When that was, is anyones guess.

 

I find it really unusual to find four righteous, original emblems without screw posts all together, so I'm guessing these were probably owned by an EGA collector at one point? Am I close? You did acquire them for a very good price, thats for sure!

 

s/f, Gary


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well guys, found all 4 of these yesterday at Raleigh. the top one has soldered wires, I assume for a kepi? trying to figure out what the solder on the bottom is for. looks to have always been this color, brown, not black

 

next three, got them for $4 each, very worn, all missing the screwposts but have the solder. look pretty good to me, but these are the first 1920s I've actually added to my collection. from left to right, you can see less and less finish per example. last one has a bit of black on the anchor, but otherwise looks to have never had a black finish,...hmm...

 

all 4 are stamped and unmarked. thanks for the opinions thumbsup.gif

 

None of those are for the kepi, they are all too late. The kepi emblem is the P1875, and is very distinct.


LEATHERNECK72


Advanced Collector and USMC Officer --- Paying top dollar for quality Marine Corps antiques. Kepis, shakos, helmets, hats, good conduct medals, old photos, fighting knives, hat and collar emblems, swords, guns, documents. Keep your USMC item in a Marine Corps family! Send me a PM and let me know what you have....

 

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Can't offer much in the way of expertise when it comes to EGAs, buy I love that hat!! Thanks for posting.

 

Kurt Barickman


My hobby is my job and my job is my hobby. High School and University History Instructor

 

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Brian,

 

Man, that's what brothers are for! thumbsup.gif

 

I'm not disputing the fact that the emblems appear to have been on Mike's two covers for a very long time. I'm simply wondering if this is how the Marines wore them while with their units, or something that may have been added post-discharge or post-war One for parades, celebrations, etc. Because of the number of ribbons and overseas chevrons on the Marine's uniform in your super photograph, I'm wondering if this photo might not have been taken post WWI and the dress emblem added for "bling" purposes only for the potrait and a parade or two? When I was seriously collecting uniforms and headgear 20 years ago, I would find my officer emblems in the headgear section of Manions. You could find and buy Grade IV and V officer visors in total disrepair and unsalvageable for minimum reserve of $20 or $25, but complete with emblems, and 50-75% of the time, the emblems were on the wrong type hat. I'm fairly certain this wasn't the way the officer's wore their emblems, but most likely added by the seller or possibly by the expert staff Manion employed. Do I believe some Marines may have worn dress emblems on service covers? Absolutely! Do I believe these Marines wore their dress emblems on service covers while with their unit? Most likely not, but we all know the regs were stretched back then, so I do believe it could be possible. Other than what usually appears to be reunion or post war studio portraits, the practice doesn't seem to have been carried out much at all, kind of like the "short timer ribbons" in the utility cap eyelets during Vietnam. Many VN era Marines know what the "STR" was, but photgraphic proof is almost non-existent, I guess, because I can't think of anything that could make an officer's or SNCO's head explode faster than seeing the "STR" attached to some Marine's cap. The STR's were only worn by Marines who just didn't give a s#*t!

 

Here is another case of the wrong emblem on the wrong cap. I found this, what appears to be a straight up WWII o/s cap with added piping, at a local yard sale. I had to ask the lady (she looked 80ish to me) if she had any old military, hoping I'd get lucky with some of her husband's WWII stuff. She went in the house and returned with this cap, only stating that it had belonged to her father. My guess is her father was a WWI Marine and this cap was an early attempt at patriotism during WWII or possibly an early attempt at MCL. My point is, this M1914 emblem looks like it's been on this cap forever, but we all know it couldn't have been, so exactly when was it added?

 

s/f, Gary

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Gary,

I would say that Marines did not wear the wrong emblem on their covers in garrison. I would think that it would have been done for, like you said, "I dont give a [email protected]#$ reasons" or for photo/parade ops. Your tan pisscutter is a little off the beaten path, and doesn't necessarily fit in with the covers that I posted or the photo that my brother posted, it is obviously MCL or fantasy with a P1914 ega. I have had American Legion piss cutters with early pattern EGAs on them that belonged to WW1 vets. I personally wouldn't care when the EGA was put on, it isn't a USMC regulation worn hat, nor is it military.

 

My point in the thread (which has morphed into a different discussion) is that photographic proof exists that the practice was done, during the era, regardless of reason, and it is not entirely wrong to find a cover with the wrong EGA on it. I think the source and circumstance under which you acquire a piece has much to say. The two I have shown are unquestionably vet done. When you pull the hat out of trunk yourself, and you are more than likely the first to touch it since the vet placed it there, is hard to discount.

 

As for Manion's items you need to consider the source. Manion's travels the show circuit collecting dealer's leftovers, sells junk and always has in my opinion. When an EGA was placed on a hat that was bought at Manion's is anyone's guess.

 

s/f,

 

Mike


Mike Manifor
Buying and selling Military Antiques. Specializing in hat and collar insignia (EGAs) of the USMC.
Top dollar paid.
[email protected]
My website:www.eagleglobeandanchor.com

Visit my EGA reference section: http://www.eagleglobeandanchor.com/EGA_Reference_Section.html

 


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The bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps. (General A. A. Vandegrift, USMC, 5 May 1946)

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