An English Aircrew Wing - Period or ?

[Paul S]

With the flood of English restrikes and probably some old repros also in circulation, like everyone else, I am gun shy of the English wings. The rating device is a separate piece, cut to fit, and soldered on.

 

What do you folks think about this one? I have some file pictures showing similarly constructed wings marked with Ludlow's soft marks.

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

They look cast to me. I can't remember for sure but I seem to remember seeing that hump-shaped pin stopping block on either WWII or post WWII German badges :think:

[pconrad02]

Actually this looks more like a CBI piece to me. I how that the common belief is this pin type is German , but I have had several named CBI groups with wings that had this type of pin configuration. I like it :thumbsup:

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Actually this looks more like a CBI piece to me. I how that the common belief is this pin type is German , but I have had several named CBI groups with wings that had this type of pin configuration. I like it :thumbsup:

 

Hi Paul,

 

Interesting. My curiosity got the best of me last night, and I did find some IAB's with this style hinge and pin, but that is not to say that the deisgn was exclusive to Germany.

[Paul S]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, gents. A bit more information…the wing is fairly light, like a LeVelle pattern wing, about 14g—length is 3-3/16”; the top edge appears to have been smoothed out by polishing except for about 20% at one end where vertical shear marks are clearly present; the entire bottom edge shows vertical shear marks; the wing reverse has the feel of a die struck piece where you can feel the sharp selvage material; the pin has a cam stop limiting it to a 90-deg. opening angle; pin posts have silver solder puddles around them. Looks like it may have been put on a surface grinder to flatten the reverse all around, the reverse generally shares some of the same roughness and finish characteristics of a lot of the AECo. wings--not too carefully done.

 

It came from a UK general antiques picker with the story that it had belonged to someone who worked at Bletchley Park during WWII. Among a lot of general decorative stuff, the UK seller had one other US wing with the same story attached…it was a perfectly good, early version of an American GI Aerial Gunner--the old Observer with the winged bullet attached. Both wings were in outstanding condition as if they could have been stored away for many years.

 

Here is a close look at the reverse:

[jbet38]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, gents. A bit more information…the wing is fairly light, like a LeVelle pattern wing, about 14g—length is 3-3/16”; the top edge appears to have been smoothed out by polishing except for about 20% at one end where vertical shear marks are clearly present; the entire bottom edge shows vertical shear marks; the wing reverse has the feel of a die struck piece where you can feel the sharp selvage material; the pin has a cam stop limiting it to a 90-deg. opening angle; pin posts have silver solder puddles around them. Looks like it may have been put on a surface grinder to flatten the reverse all around, the reverse generally shares some of the same roughness and finish characteristics of a lot of the AECo. wings--not too carefully done.

 

It came from a UK general antiques picker with the story that it had belonged to someone who worked at Bletchley Park during WWII. Among a lot of general decorative stuff, the UK seller had one other US wing with the same story attached…it was a perfectly good, early version of an American GI Aerial Gunner--the old Observer with the winged bullet attached. Both wings were in outstanding condition as if they could have been stored away for many years.

 

Here is a close look at the reverse:

 

Paul,

 

I haven't collected British- or foreign-made wings, so can't speak from experience and could easily be wrong.

 

My only observation is that the wings appear to lack expected signs of age.

 

From my experience, unless protected by lacquer or varnish, a pair of 60-year-old silver wings ought to show areas of coal-black tarnish on the backside, particularly wings like these with a rough surface that likely would never be cleaned or polished.

 

Instead, the backside on these wings looks surprisingly fresh and alarmingly untarnished.

 

Even the soldering looks recent to my eyes.

 

The disturbing lack of age toning coupled with what looks like recent construction would make me suspect these wings, no matter where they were made.

 

Like I said, I could be wrong.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Paul S]

Hi Jbet

 

I understand and appreciate your observations. In fact, I prefer to see signs of age and use on a piece myself and tend to suspect something that looks too new. However, I have seen a few instances where a wing or two has come to light after having been set aside decades ago…sometimes they are still in their original boxes or still on their cards. The tone I’ve seen most commonly on these pieces is an even, dark gray, although one or two pieces have taken on multi-colored hues probably due to the atmosphere in which they sat.

 

I don’t have much invested in this wing, so I’m not particularly inclined to defend it too vigorously. But I think it’s a decent topic for discussion, since this design seems to have been used by more than one maker and is offered for sale fairly frequently. As to lack tarnish, I agree with your points with respect to age; however, if the piece had been wrapped in Pacific cloth, then you could expect that toning might have taken place, but probably not tarnish. Then again, this wing may not be sterling.

 

No doubt I would have been more suspicious of this wing for the reasons you stated if it had been a costlier piece. I wrote the seller this afternoon to ask more about it and more about her story. Her eBay inventory consists of about 200 miscellaneous pieces of good quality Minton dishes etc., and 2 AAF wings—the story being that they came from an old (103) lady’s estate who had worked at Bletchley Park during WWII. The second wing was the Aerial Gunner shown below which is also in remarkably good condition for its age and one that is not known to have been copied to my knowledge.

 

As you likely know, during the early part of the war, gunners wore Aircrew wings—so the pairing of these two wings in one estate makes some sense; you could make a case for their being a gift of a young airman to his English lady friend. Anyway, it’s an interesting detective story.

[pfrost]

Hi Paul,

 

Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with either wing. The aircrew wing seems to be a zinc- or other pot-metal material. The wing is die struck and the pin looks vintage. Altogether, it looks like what I would expect from a war time or post war European-made insignia. For example, I see no reason it couldn't be a post war, occupation made wing from Germany, explaining the "German-like" hinge. Sometimes being too critical is just as bad as not being critical enough.

 

It is a neat wing.

 

Patrick

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Hi Patrick,

 

I understand what you are saying bout being too critical, but I think in this case we were merely trying to think it through before arriving at a consensus as it is an odd ball variety. I have a lot to learn about wings, but to my eye, the first wing still looks cast to me. I suppose it could be a die struck zinc piece as you say, and would make perfect sense given the possible German connection. If it is die struck, it was very crudely done and then hand filed and finished. I hope Paul doesn't think I am condemning the wing, as that is not my intention.

[pfrost]

Howdy Steve,

 

You all raised some good points about it looking cast. If this was a cast wing, then I would agree, maybe it isn't so good. But, to be honest, it doesn't really look cast to me (with all the caveats of not having it in hand to be more sure, etc). Also, I tend to view air crew wings with much less of a jaundiced eye than say a glider pilot or liaison pilot wing. Why make an aircrew wing fake since they have much less value?

 

I have watched on more than one occasion people who should know better talk themselves out of a perfectly good wing (sometimes a super duper rare wing at that!), being hypercritical or extra suspicious. When you start looking for issues, then even the smallest things can seem significant. Every ding or imperfection starts you second guessing your gut impression. In this wings case, it doesnt seem that anything has been added, such as a maker mark or hallmark to make it seem something that it isn't. To me, it is just a wing made out of pot-metal and shows some good decent wear. That was my only point about being to critical. :thumbsup:

 

Finally, Paul S (and the other Paul) is pretty savvy and I would tend to think if he has it in hand and likes the wing, then it is more than likely a good one. At the end of the day, its in his collection and so he is the one who has to be happy with it. I think it is a pretty neat wing, myself.

 

Patrick

[pconrad02]

All,

 

Interesting points all, I guess my final observation would be that I ( based on the photos here) wouldn't hesitate to buy the wing in question, if it was priced right of course!

 

And since I'm cheap, that's my highest recommentation.

 

And just one other note, since a lot of the Theater made wings are alloy, many show very little signs of aging, if I get motivated I'll open a case and post a few pics.

 

 

Paul

[John Cooper]

An interesting discussion all with very many well considered observations. I think I am always a little cautious when I see something that is rough looking on the reverse with obivous file marks. With that being said I would have to agree with Patrick that to really tell you must have it in hand to get the feel of it and to do a close inspection... but as Paul C has said "if it was priced right" then i would get it just to see how it was made.

 

@ Paul S how crisp are the details on the obverse and are there any of the typlical signs of this being cast?

 

 

John

P.S. Partick - you really should shave that facial hair I think it is a bit much :lol2:

[Paul S]

I believe the first wing in this thread is original to the period…there is really not much about it that bothers me—obverse detailing is sharp. I think it is an alloy or pot metal piece that has a very bright plating applied. The plating has a very light yellow cast, perhaps due to age.

 

I’ve seen a few English wings like it that have similar, very bright finishes in fairly advanced states of degradation—and, they too have a pretty rough reverse and once degraded, they are ugly. It doesn’t appear to be a high end piece, perhaps similar to some of the WWII USA wings we commonly see and wonder if they are unmarked sterling or silver plated—not bad, but nothing extraordinary either.

 

I agree with Patrick that there wouldn’t be much return in faking aircrew wings, so I think the likelihood of encountering fakes in this rating would be far less in than rarer ratings. The thing that caught my attention about the subject wing was its similarity in construction to the Ludlow shown below.

[Paul S]

Here is a wing up on eBay now that seems to be a similar wing used as a starter to this thread, then was altered to add the Ludlow hallmark slug that I think most of us recognize as an added feature intended to deceive. I wonder if the "G" is also an added deceptive feature to this wing, or if indeed it started its life out as an inexpensive "G" wing? Note the same German-style hinge as used on the thread starter.

[pfrost]

Hi Paul,

 

Frankly, I am kind of mixed on these wings, but my gut tells me they are likely just fine. I would want to make sure they were not cast and that they did in fact test out to be sterling silver. I don't really like the Ludlow plate but everything else looks OK to me. I suspect the final call for me would be the price. Also, my feeling has always been that Ludlow was at the lower end of manufacturing spectrum. But, not having any Ludlow's in my colleciton to compare in hand, it is kind of hard to know for sure.

 

I think I would look at them with two caveats in mind...) that other collectors would likely be concerned about the vintage and 2) because of that, the price would always be less than a more rock solid English-made wing.

 

If they were cheap enough I would likely buy them, just to have them to study. But I doubt I would have my feelings hurt if someone else disagreed and didn't think that they were vintage at all.

 

Patrick

[Gary Cain]

Just a simple point to make on Ludlow insignia. They never (and I rarely use that term) soldered a plate to their insignia with their makers mark. In point of fact Ludlow rarely marked their insignia period. Also they did not use that type of hinge...ever.