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5thwingmarty
Posted

I learned at this year's SOS that the Bell 3" letter wings are a slightly different pattern. I was able to pick up a 3" Liaison there that a wing expert friend of mine spotted for me. He says the 3" Bell Liaison wings are their most common letter wings. Their 3" Glider wings are much more scares. This is the inverse of their 2" letter wings where the Glider wings are most common among their letter wings.

 

I think there is another thread where this pattern is discussed as being a Bell variant but I couldn't find it.

 

By the way, I will be back at the SOS at least for the morning at a table near the center of row CC if any forum members want to swing by.

 

Marty

 

 

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Posted

Nice pick-up Marty! Looks like the SOS hunt is treating you well. I've heard a number of collectors refer to the design of your Liaison Pilot as a "first pattern Bell" and the more common design as a "second pattern Bell." If that is true, then Bell produced their first pattern badges in both "STERLING" and "COIN SILVER."

 

Here's two past threads with a few more nice Bell examples:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/174714-anyone-know-who-is-behind-this-three-layer-pattern/?hl=%2Bbell+%2Bpattern&do=findComment&comment=1334622

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/76408-a-trio-of-beauties/?hl=%2Bbell+%2Bpattern

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posted

This thread is a perfect example of how 'myth' can suddenly become accepted as FACT.

 

Collectors never cease to amaze some of us at how quickly we are willing to accept a rumor picked-up at a militaria show or via general word of mouth speculation based on hearsay. To attribute the design of this particular badge to 'Bell' without any proof or documentation what-so-ever in order to back the claim is nothing more than pure speculation. What is the point?

 

If anyone can produce documentation to support the 'myth' that this badge was made by 'Bell' I would love to see it.

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Posted

You raise an interesting point, Cliff. To be fair, I have never seen any "proof" that the Bell wings were made by Bell. Up to about 5 years or so ago, no one I knew ever seemed to know who made them, then I started hearing them refered to as "Bell wings" amongst a certain group of collectors. Apparently, when I asked, I was told that someone had a box or paper card with this pattern of wing on them and the "Bell" name (IIRC it was Bell Trading Company, but I could be wrong). Still, no one has ever actually shown me any "proof", such as a Bell catalog or salesman's sample, a patent application, or even a letter or note from an old employee of Bell. Not that I don't think Bell is as good a candidate for these wings as any other, but I don't think I have seen proof one way or the other. It could be that there is proof, but I haven't ever seen it.

 

On the other hand, if you look at the other pattern wing, they are actaully rather similar in the quality fo workmanship and construction. They use a highly polished silver planchet, and have very similar hardware. While the pattern isn't exact, I have never had any issues with believing they COULD be from the same manufacturing firm that made the Bell wing.

 

But your point about lore become fact is well taken, but maybe the myth goes deeper--maybe Bell is just dealer lore as well? Just wondering?

 

Patrick

Posted

I can't offer any formal documentation proving the two different patterns came from the Bell Trading Company. Prior to this thread, I didn't have much interest in the topic until I read comments by Patrick and Paul S in the archive threads. Now I understand why a number of collectors believe these two patterns were produced by the same hands.

 

I realize offering a list of similarities between the two patterns is nothing more than circumstantial evidence when searching for a formal connection, but there might be some interest in it.

 

Here's a comparison of the two patterns in Glider Pilot rating:

 

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Posted

Identical raised "STERLING" marks on the back.

 

Same brass pin.

 

Same hinge and catch.

 

Similar high-quality die strikes.

 

Similar rim details and finishing.

 

Similar thickness and attention to uniformity.

 

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Posted

Another tidbit of information which I find interesting is the pattern in question was also produced with an incised "COIN SILVER" stamp. We know Walter Lampl ventured into Mexico during WWII to procure "COIN SILVER" in order to produce his line of Juarez-style wings. Considering the Bell Trading Company was located in Albuquerque, New Mexico...and hired Navajo Indian jewelers and silversmiths, it's not much of a stretch to consider Bell may have also produced badges using Mexican coin silver and marking their product as such. (Please keep in mind this is nothing more than speculation.)

 

Here's the back of a variant Glider Pilot and Pilot badge with "COIN SILVER" markings.

 

 

 

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Posted

Again, my input is an effort to stimulate ideas and participation from all interested Forum members. I want to hear what you have to say about the possibility of these two patterns being produced by Bell.

 

I absolutely respect and honor Cliff's ideals in seeking out and upholding only that documentation which is verifiable and true. I personally consider Cliff the single most knowledgeable and forthright U.S. aerial badge historian this world has to offer. But if I can push him to the edge of his seat while revealing something new about a particular wing pattern, then we all benefit and this terrific hobby is only enhanced!

 

Take a look at the similarities and differences in these two patterns. Are they from the same manufacturer?

 

IMG_4852a_crop.jpg

 

Yes, the shields are slightly different in size and shape. The feathering and wing design is distinctly different. But the horizontal lines in the upper shield and the vertical lines between the ribs of the shield are uniquely similar. I can't help but think even if Bell was not responsible for both patterns, the original dies were produced by the same artist.

 

 

 

5thwingmarty
Posted

I can't see it on Rusty's lower glider wing, but on my similar pattern Liaison wing the wing feathers have fine detailing very similar to my other Bell wings.

Rusty, how do these two glider wings compare in dimensions. I can't tell if one wing is really quite a bit wider than the other or if this was two separate photos you have pasted together and it just made one look bigger.

 

Cliff, I don't know you or anything about you. I don't know if you have 10 wings or 1,000. I do know my friend has 100's of wings, has been collecting for many years, and consults with many other extremely serious collectors about his collection. He has almost every variant in every size from every known U.S. WWII AAF wing manufacturer, probably lacking less than a dozen known wings. Since he told me these are Bell wings, I am going to take his word.

 

Patrick, the book "Silver Wings, Pinks & Greens" was published in 1994 and it had a photo of a 2" Navigator wing on the card from Bell Trading Company, and the pattern on the wing is the typical "Bell wing" pattern with the 3 notches on each shoulder and the fine detailing on the feathers. The card my gunner wing is on is just like this card.

 

And although I don't know of any 2" or 3" "Bell" wings with a Bell Trading hallmark, I have a smaller sweetheart gunner wing with a Bell Trading Hallmark. It doesn't have the fine feather detailing but it does have the same sort of draped winged bullet as the 1-piece 2" and 3" Bell gunner wings I have. By draped I mean the observer-type background has a curve across the face of it (like a slice of a ball) and the winged bullet curves from the tip of the bullet to the tip of the bullet's wings and from one side of the bullet's wings to the other. Here are pictures of my 2" Bell gunner to try and illustrate this (sorry for the poor photo quality). Other one-piece gunner wings I have seen look like the winged bullet is lying on a flat surface. To me this is evidence that all these gunner wings are from the same maker, and that maker was Bell Trading.

 

One last point to all this. I don't know if there is any evidence that Walter Lampl ever had a wing made in Juarez, but everyone seems to prefer calling his wings Juarez wings instead of Lampl wings. Juarez is just a rumor but no one is attacking anyone who makes a post calling a wing a Juarez wing.

 

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Posted

I absolutely respect and honor Cliff's ideals in seeking out and upholding only that documentation which is verifiable and true. I personally consider Cliff the single most knowledgeable and forthright U.S. aerial badge historian this world has to offer. But if I can push him to the edge of his seat while revealing something new about a particular wing pattern, then we all benefit and this terrific hobby is only enhanced!

 

Russ, thank you for those kind words. I will be the first to admit that more often than not I have provoked discord on this forum but I will always welcome your willingness to push any of us to the edge of our seats anytime you feel it might benefit current and future collectors. That has always been my goal too.

 

With regard to whether or not 'Bell'' was a manufacturer may be open to question for many years to come; however, I still contend that at the present time to say both of the two badges in question were made by them without any proof to back it up is still based purely on hearsay and not on fact.

 

Having said that it does not rule out the possibility that some (one) individual might have had a hand in making the die for both badges. Personally I see no reason to believe that is what happened in this case but I could be wrong. Why? Because it does not rule out a well known fact that most of the highly skilled artisan-craftspeople who made wing badge stamping dies often worked in close consultation or collaboration with more than one manufacturer.

 

In other words, the same craftsman who made the die for the wing badge which most of us have long associated with the name of 'Bell' may have made the die for the second wing too. . . but for another manufacturer.

 

Cliff

Posted

While I may not be the only one to have concluded that the two patterns came from the same place, to my knowledge, I was the first one to post that idea on this forum (back in 2010 or so), so I can't be accused of hearsay. But like Cliff say, my idea was not based at all on facts--so Cliff is correct--I'm guilty.

 

The story of how and why I started to investigate the Watler Lampl source as the Juarez wings is in one of the pinned threads (again, I may not have been the first or only one to figure that out, but I believe I was the first to post it on this forum). I believe (and there are some facts to support this) that Walter Lampl had his wings made in or around Mexico (or the American Southwest) during WWII. When someone told me that the wings with the very fine feathering was made by the Bell Trading Co of New Mexico, I wondered if they shared some similarities. When I compared the Juarez, the "Bell" wing and the second "Bell" wing, I saw a number of matches, albeit the Juarez wing being the odd man out.

 

I then did some internet searches on the Bell Trading Co. They were a mom-and-pop outfit that went into business in 1935 and primarily seemed to sell "tourist" indian-style copper (and some silver) items in the SW. I suspect that they were more of a retail type business than a primary manufacturing business.

 

The Bell wings (in all sizes) are rather common (especially here in So Cal), I used to see the pilot and aircrewman's wings all the time, but have recently become much more sought after. I believe that they the were made in very large batches, probably for the large USAAF market in the south west US. Based on that, I had always assumed that the Bell Trading Co (like Luxenberg) was only a retail outlet for insignia made by another wholesale manufacturing company.

 

I believe that if you examine the two "Bell" patterns (as Russ showed) and the Juarez pattern wing, you will see enough similarities in manufacturing techniques, hardware and construction, to come to the conclusion that they were made in the same place (if not in the same shop, then in the group of artisans (as Cliff says))--in or around the American Southwest. Frankly, I doubt strongly that Bell actually made any wings themselves or even had a high capacity die striking manufacturing plant to produce their wares. Rather, I suspect some other tool/die or metal working company is the guilty party, and if so, then why couldn't all these wings have come from the same place?

 

I got me no proof, but that is what I thinks.

 

Patrick

 

Posted

Also, while I have never seen the 3 or 2 inch Bell wing with a hallmark, I have seen the little 1 inch wing with a hallmark for the Bell Trading Co (as well as some paratrooper jump wings).

 

That being said, the small 1 inch wing, when it is just marked "sterling" is very characteristic of some of the Juarez wings. The STERLING mark (for example), if you look closely, has an upside down "G". You see the same thing on some Juarez wings, with an upside down "G".

 

Also, as Russ has said, Juarez wings are frequently found with a "COIN SILVER" mark, as is the unknown Bell? wing.

 

The use of COIN SILVER is not uncommon (especially in Mexico silver work), but the same upside down "G" in the sterling mark? On two different hallmarked wings.... one could argue that they came from the same place (thus the same typo) rather than they came from two DIFFERENT places that made the same mistake twice. Or perhaps they both used the same dyslexic tool maker?

 

My point is that all three wings have connections to each other.

 

Patrick

Posted

Here is what I was talking about above. Here are a couple of 1 inch wings, one is an AC wing with the Walter Lampl (WL in a shield) and the STERLING with upside down "G" and the other (in the same pattern) is the glider wing with just the STERLING with the upside down "G". I have also added a photo of the hallmark on a 3 inch Walter Lampl wing with the upside down G.

 

Thus, you can clearly like Walter Lampl (the maker of the 3 inch Juarez wings) to this little 1 inch sweetheart wing that is frequently identified as a Bell Trading post made wing.

 

I believe that somewhere I have (or have seen) this little 1 inch wing with this hallmark (one of the Bell trading post hallmarks. I haven't found it yet, so I may be wrong. BUT, if I am correct, and this Bell hallmark shows up on a 1 inch wing, that would link the Bell wings to the Juarez wings. Of course, it still doesn't exatly link the 3rd type of wing (which I have only seen as a 3 incher) to the other wings, but I am still working on that.

 

The last hallmark is the Bell Trading Post hallmark found on WWII and post WWII era jump wings.

 

Patrick

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Posted

So, I finally found one of the items I was looking for (but not all). In this case, we have a 2 inch Bell pattern wing--I think even Cliff would agree this is a Bell attributable-pattern?

 

If you look at the 2 inch shirt size Bell patterns you find that MOST of the wings have a raised STERLING mark, but some small precentage (~20-25%--mostly in the pilot patterns) have stamped STERLING mark. In some of those, you find a few with the STERLING with the upside G, as in this example. You can see, the "BELL" wing is marked pretty much the same was as some of the 1 inch and 3 inch Walter Lampl Wings! Not PROOF, of course, that these two wings were made by the same outfit, but not, strictly speaking, fantasy-fever dreams of an over caffeinated wing collector with access ot the internet either!

 

The 3 inch Bell wings (and the other questionable wing), as far as I can recall seeing, ALL have excised STERLING markes (except for a few that have COIN SILVER).

 

So, in summary....some of the facts show that:

 

You sometimes find the 1 inch sweetheart wings marked with Walter Lampl's hallmark AND a STERLING with upside down G.

You sometimes find the 3 inch Juarez wings marked with Wlater Lampl's hallmark and a STERLING with upside down G.

You sometimes find the 3 inch Juarez wings marked with COIN SILVER.

You sometimes find the 2 inch Bell wing marked with a STERLING with upside down G.

You sometimes find the 3 inch (2nd pattern?) bell wing marked with COIN SILVER.

Both of the Bell? wings have almost identicle STERLING marks, pins and findings as well as very similar quality finish and construction.

 

The Juarez and Bell wings can be traced (more or less) to SW USA or Mexico.

 

There may be a Bell marked 1 inch sweetheart wing in the same pattern as the 1 inch WL marked wing (but I cannot currently find a picture so this is a pending fact).

 

I am probably wrong and someone will correct me, but that is why I have always kind of thought that the Juarez, Bell and the other Bell(?) were made by the same company.

 

Frankly, other than these wings, I don't EVER recall seeing another wing with a STERLING mark where the G was upside down. To me, this says that it is more than likely the same stamps were being used on very similar wings. In fact, if you compare the Lample and Bell wings... you see that the stamp even has the same defect on the inside leg of the "N"!

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Posted

Ok, I found the wing marked with the Bell hallmark. It is a USN 1 inch wing, however. Still, it does look like the other 1 inch wings. At least we can be sure that at least one wing was made by Bell.

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Posted

Tonight I pulled out my little boxes of 1.5 and 2 inch sweetheart wings and laid them all out. I think I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Walter Lampl either contracted out with Bell, Bell contracted with Walter Lampl or both firms used the same manufacturer to make the 1.5 inch sweetheart wings.

 

Keep in mind post#26 above: First, here is a smattering of 6 of the little 1.5 inch wings from my collection. Bombardier, flight surgeon, observer, aircrewman, gunner and glider (I am sure I have others but I tend to squirrel these little buggers away and then loose them).

 

I think we can all agree that they are all the same pattern as each other and the same pattern as in post #26 (the Walter Lampl hallmarked piece).

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Posted

When you turn them over, you find that 3 of the 6 are marked with a STERLING mark with an upside down G (just like the wings in post #26 above), 2 are marked with a STERLING mark with a normal G, and 1 is marked with the Bell Trading Post hallmark (the gunner wing)!

 

All the wings have the exact same hinge and pin, but 3 are "C" catches, 2 use the weak style "Juarez-type" catch, and 1 has a more typical catch for WWII vintage wings.

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Posted

Finally, the gunner wing. This has incised Bell hallmark (see post #26 and #28).

 

I think I have been able to show conclusively, that AT LEAST FOR THE 1.5 inch wings, both can (rarely) be found with either Walter Lampl's hallmark or the Bell Trading Post Hallmark. They also frequently show a diagnostic and characteristic STERLING hallmark with an upside down G.

 

Recall that Walter Lampl was located in New York and it has been shown that the contracted some work in Mexico during WWII. I suspect that they may have been using either Bell Trading Post (if they were manufacturing 1.5 inch wings) or another company that was ALSO making wings for Bell.

 

As for the 2 inch wings, other than some of the "Bell-attributed" wings having the same typo-error in the sterling mark as some of the 1.5 inch wings (and the same pin and hinge/catch findings), there is little other "proof", BUT if I had to guess, I would think the 2 inch wings were also made or contracted by the same place that made the 1.5 inch wings.

 

Finally, the 3 inch wings. Russ and I agree (If I can speak for him) that you never seem to find a 3 inch Bell wing with anything other than an excised hallmark. But I think reasonable people can agree that the two patterns of wings (the Bell and the maybe-Bell), do share lots of similarities. As to whether or not the 3 inch Juarez wing was made by the same company as the Bells??? I think yes, but there is honestly no proof. Another collector once assured me that I was totally incorrect and the Juarez wings were made in New Jersey (I just say that to be fair to him), but I think he is the one who has incorrect information. Certainly, the 1.5 and 3 inch Juarez (Walter Lampl wings) are very similar in that they use the same findings and STERLING with upside down G.

 

So, after spending ALL day screwing around on the net and in my collection, I think I can say to Cliff that I have provided at least SOME proof to some of his concerns that we (I) were spreading hearsay and myths about the Bell/Juarez connection.

 

Later, I will discuss my theory of how the Empirical-Little Fabricators of Keebler Ohio may actually the company involved.

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skypilot6670
Posted

Excellant posting.A very convincing presentation. Thanks you all very much. Mike

Posted

Patrick,

 

I really appreciate your efforts in this thread! Over the years I've seen dozens of those small silver USN Aviator wings, but never associated them with the Bell Trading Company. The example you posted is the first I've seen with the Bell hallmark. Excellent stuff!

 

Here's a "COIN SILVER" marked 1 & 3/8's inch Bombardier pin which likely fits right into your Bell/Lampl study.

 

 

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5thwingmarty
Posted

Russ, do you have or have you seen a 2" Bell glider wing where the sterling is marked with the raised letters? The few examples I have seen or can find images of all have the incised letters on the 2" glider wings, while the other types of 2" and 3" Bell wings (most common pattern) have the raised letters.

Posted

Russ, do you have or have you seen a 2" Bell glider wing where the sterling is marked with the raised letters? The few examples I have seen or can find images of all have the incised letters on the 2" glider wings, while the other types of 2" and 3" Bell wings (most common pattern) have the raised letters.

 

Marty,

 

I've never seen a two-inch Bell pattern Glider Pilot with raised "STERLING" hallmarks. I'm not prepared to say they don't exist...especially since we know Bell made both Liaison Pilot and Service Pilot in shirt-sizes with that raised letter characteristic. But all of the shirt-size Glider Pilot wings that I have seen so far have had solid backs and incised lettering.

 

Regarding your question in frame # 22 concerning wing dimensions, yes there is a 2 mm difference in width between the two patterns. The top Glider Pilot badge example in frame #17 is approximately 76 mm in width...and the bottom Glider Pilot badge is approximately 78 mm wide.

 

Russ

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

Seeing this carded Bell wing for sale on ebay this morning reminded me again of Patrick's ideas posted above.

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rathbonemuseum.com
Posted

Well, this is a first. Just showed up on ebay and priced very high for an observer on the original Bell Trading Company sales card. I post it here for reference as Patrick has established a lot of circumstantial evidence in support of the Bell pattern with its unique detail pattern of lines on the feathers and findings (brass pin, fold up pin retainer) on the back. As far as I know, this is the first I have seen of the Bell card. Nice to put them finally together.

 

 

BellObsCard.jpg

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