USMC - GRENNAN, John F 2nd Bn, 6th Marine Regiment

[French Sam]

Hello guys,

 

I pick up this canteen near Château Thierry in France.

 

I know John F Grennan participated in the attack on and capture of Bouresches. Wounded in action, 06 Jun 1918 by enemy fire in Bouresches and died of wounds.

 

What do you think about this canteen (Indian Head shape) ?

 

Best.

 

French Sam.

 

 

[warguy]

Sam, I thought the Indianhead star was adopted as a logo for the Second Division at about the time the fighting stopped. So in June, 1918, I don't believe anyone was using this. It is possible one of his buddies perhaps did this as a bit of a "memorial" to him in 1919 after the hostilities?? I mean it looks old and of the style. The Washington reference at the bottom may indicate it was done when they returned for the parade there, or well after the war when the artist was assigned to the Washington area? I don't know it is a little bit of a mystery but I don't believe Grennan himself would have done it. Just my thoughts. Kevin

[doyler]

Looking at the general shape of the design reminds me of the shell used by the 17th FA

[devildog34]

No doubt a post war addition. Very cool item. I think I may have a photo of Grennen in my archives. I'll have to look.

[French Sam]

Thanks for your answers ! I will post a photo of Grennen.

Best.

French Sam.

[doyler]

Appears to be writing above the star...can you make out what is written?

 

Another name?...maybe the Artist?

[French Sam]

Here more photos ! It's written "France" and "Washington".

 

 

[French Sam]

And :

 

Pvt JF GRENNAN

2ND DIV 6TH USMC

[French Sam]

It's true, the shape looks like Field Artillery...

[RJJensen]

Hello to all who chimned in on this post-

 

I'm a couple years late seeing this as I've just become a member.

John F. Grennan was my great, great Uncle! What a treat to see photos of this canteen!!!

 

Would love to know more details surrounding it's "finding" if possible.

Cheers,

Robin J

 

[French Sam]

Hello,

 

I searched who were the owners of this canteen before me...

I unfortunately learned that the engraving was wrong...

A stupid man has engraved this canteen with his hand...

Really sorry Robin...

Cheers,

 

Loïc.

[Brig]

Washington could be the Marines home state. I recall reading that a lot of 6th Marines guys were from Washington and Oregon area, as it was found in France it at never have left France. I am curious what you mean by the engraving is wrong, a trenched engraving would have no wrong way

[warguy]

Brig it sounds to me as if he discovered that this canteen was faked perhaps. As I indicated in my original post, it simply makes no sense for a KIA at Belleau wood to have the Indianhead logo on a piece of trench art. That wouldn't have happened until after the armistice. Unless it was done as some type of tribute by a buddy, which is highly unlikely, it just doesn't add up IMO. Now French Sam didn't indicate when Grennan died of his wounds. If he remained in hospital until after the armistice perhaps this was commissioned by him, or did he maybe pass years later? If he passed before the armistice though, which is what is implied, things just don't add up. I have a helmet in my collection, named to a Marine who was severely wounded at Soissons and came back to the states in September. He had his helmet painted to replicate the German Cammo with a big ega painted on the front. I believe it was done in France before he came home. No where on it is the Indianhead logo which in my mind is totally accurate and indicative of his early return prior to the armistice. It also has a 1918 date painted on it as opposed to the more popular 1919 or 1918-1919 dates you find on items produced during the occupation. Little details that match up to the record of this Marine.

 

With the myriad of fake mess kits and canteens floating around lately, many named to KIA or Medal of Honor/ NC and SS recipients, one has to be extremely cautious with this type of trench art today. Kevin

[world war I nerd]

French Sam, Warguy, et all,

 

The 2nd Division's star & Indian head design was adopted in March of 1918 when the division first entered the line in the Verdun sector.

 

To better identify the unit shoulder patches, the different color and different geometric shaped backgrounds, on which the existing star & Indian head logo was placed, was adopted shortly before the Armistice was signed some eight months later.

 

Initially the star & Indian head logo was adopted as the insignia for the 2nd Supply Train. After being approved by the supply train's commander, it was promptly painted onto all of that organization's vehicles. However, the design became popular with the entire division and within a month or two it was being used by the entire division, including the division commander, all the way through to the signing of the Armistice.

 

Therefore, every Doughboy & Marine that served in the 2nd Division from March of 1918 to November of 1918, and beyond, would have known about, and been proud of the star & Indian head insignia.

 

For the complete story on how the 2nd Division's star & Indian head insignia came to be, see post No. 07 at this link:

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/223866-star-and-indian-head-insignia-of-the-2nd-infantry-division-aef/

[French Sam]

Hello,

 

Kevin understood me... It's a fake engraving on the canteen...

A stupid guy do that for money...

 

Loïc

[warguy]

Nerd, your research is always impeccable but I am not familiar with a piece of trench art using the star Indianhead with provenance prior to the armistice. I remain confident that most of the items depicting this were done after the armistice and post war and therefore any items attributed to a member KIA especially in the early battles should be examined with a critical eye. Just my opinion. Kevin

[manayunkman]

Loic,

 

How did you find out it was a fake?

[world war I nerd]

French Sam, Warguy, et all,

 

I was not stating whether or not if the trench art canteen depicted in this post was real or fake.

 

I was merely drawing attention to the fact that the 2nd Division's star & Indian head motif was indeed in use long before the Armistice and the 2nd Division's involvement in the battle for Belleau Wood, and that it was therefore possible for a soldier or Marine to have created a piece of trench art bearing that design prior to June of 1918.

 

 

 

I too agree that a collector is unwise to assume that any particular piece of trench art was created during the war without any supporting evidence.

 

It is also equally unwise for a collector to state that every piece of WW I era trench art bearing AEF unit insignia was fabricated after the Armistice.

 

In my opinion, it's likely that the great majority of trench art pieces bearing AEF unit insignia were produced after the Armistice was signed, but most certainly, not every single one of them.

 

 

Kevin, that's the only point I'm trying to make, as we are in agreement in regard to the fact that each piece of trench art "should be examined with a critical eye." (As should everything else associated with the USMC & the 2nd Division)

[French Sam]

Hello,

 

I loooked for previous owners and I found the name of one man know here to make fake...

I was given this canteen so I have never done research...

I live near BW and here some people don't hesitate to do anything for money...

The person who give it to me thought it was a fake... It's on now !

 

Loïc.

[warguy]

French Sam, Warguy, et all,

 

I was not stating whether or not if the trench art canteen depicted in this post was real or fake.

 

I was merely drawing attention to the fact that the 2nd Division's star & Indian head motif was indeed in use long before the Armistice and the 2nd Division's involvement in the battle for Belleau Wood, and that it was therefore possible for a soldier or Marine to have created a piece of trench art bearing that design prior to June of 1918.

 

 

 

I too agree that a collector is unwise to assume that any particular piece of trench art was created during the war without any supporting evidence.

 

It is also equally unwise for a collector to state that every piece of WW I era trench art bearing AEF unit insignia was fabricated after the Armistice.

 

In my opinion, it's likely that the great majority of trench art pieces bearing AEF unit insignia were produced after the Armistice was signed, but most certainly, not every single one of them.

 

 

Kevin, that's the only point I'm trying to make, as we are in agreement in regard to the fact that each piece of trench art "should be examined with a critical eye." (As should everything else associated with the USMC & the 2nd Division)

Thanks I think we are in agreement, although I have yet to see strong evidence of a star Indianhead on anything Marine while the war was raging. Would be nice to see something in a photo or somehow documented, or more importantly a family owned item from a Marine who didn't make it home. You know of anything nerd?

[warguy]

WWInerd just to be clear, I do indeed concede that a Star Indianhead logo could have been used, but there is some evidence to suggest the Marines were more interested in using more traditional Marine Corps symbols than the star Indianhead during the war. Reference Moran's book US Marine Uniforms 1912-1940', page 72 for a photo of Corporal William Myers producing a mess kit with a large Old English M. The caption states he was a jeweler in civilian life and carved this monogram on one of his buddies mess kits DURiNG WWI. Another mess kit in the same reference is shown on page 121 with a simple name, battles and dates of the battle. My helmet referenced in the above post is yet another example of a Marine using the ega very prominently to decorate his helmet before leaving the Continent in September ,1918. So while I stand corrected that never shall one (Me in this instance) state that the star Indianhead was not used during the war, I have yet to see evidence it was (in this fashion) and rather see some decoration other than the newly adopted second vision logo before the armistice and occupation duty. So I will never say never, but for me, a big red flag when I see this logo on a KIA's kit. I would once again love to see evidence to the contrary. As always, thanks for your excellent research and information. Kevin

[world war I nerd]

Kevin, I think that we can both agree the words "never" & "always" are not applicable to anything that is related to the uniforms, equipment & insignia as used by the AEF.

 

Also, you make a very valid point about the preferred use of the Marine Corps beloved Eagle, Globe & Anchor emblem over that of the 2nd Division's star & Indian head logo during the early stages of the war ... Thanks for bringing to my attention,a fact that had not occurred to me. The Marines definitely wanted all to know that they were members of the U.S.M. C., not the U.S. Army, & what better way to do so than by inscribing themselves or their equipment with the U.S.M.C. logo.

 

I have a keen interest in determining to what extent how & when AEF unit insignia (& other organizational symbols) were used between the date each motif was adopted as a marking for baggage & transport and the time they were officially or unofficially made into shoulder patches. To that end, there is ample evidence that several AEF combat divisions did so. Despite the present lack of evidence, logic dictates that the 2nd Division did likewise.

 

But to answer the question you posed - in respect to the 2nd Division - other than on signs & on vehicles, no, I've yet to see any evidence that the star & Indian head emblem was used by individual soldiers or Marines during hostilities, with the exception of anecdotal evidence suggesting that star & Indian head insignia was being worn by members of division HQ prior to the signing of the Armistice.

 

One thing we should all keep in mind though, is that trench art is called that because that was where soldiers literally first began to embellish their equipment with names, dates, locations and other forms of artwork. There is no evidence to suggest that the individual soldier's ability or desire to create trench art ceased after "Trench Art" became a thriving cottage industry that was primarily aimed at the Yanks, who were much better paid than their Allied comrades in arms, during the latter stages the war. Unfortunately, the problem is, and shall remain ... when, where, and by whom, was each piece of trench art created. Sadly, without any accompanying documentation all one can do is guess.

[warguy]

Valid point all, thanks again for the interesting discussion and your ongoing contributions to this hobby and our history. This is what I like most about this forum. Kevin