1st pattern and 2nd p. P44 camo differences?

[Corpsman_1941]

Hi!

Anyone can tell me what are differences between P44 USMC camo trousers and jacket of 1st pattern and 2nd pattern? Is jacket on below photo 1st P or 2nd P? It have brass buttons not black as later P44s or late P41s and P47s

['Flage Guy]

I've always taken the particular Utility Coat which you have as the final model of the 1944 Camouflage Utilities. I have no documentation of when exactly either of the 2 variants of this uniform were produced, but your Coat is made from what I refer to as the "new improved" HBT camo cloth which was printed with more blending and colorfast dyes than the early-run material, and which remained in production up into the early '50s and the end of the "Frogskin" HBT era. There were also design differences which were carried on through the postwar years as well.

 

Here is a shot of early (left) and later '44 'Flage Coats....

 

['Flage Guy]

Close-up detail; the design improvements on the later Coat consist of horizontal buttonholes and the male pouch snaps being reinforced by heavy web tape rather than HBT cloth. Also note the darker O.D. shade of the Coat on the right.

['Flage Guy]

The Trousers; again, the early variant on the left. Note the more streamlined side pocket flaps on the later pants...

['Flage Guy]

More design differences are seen here, which were retained through the early '50s: belt loops in place of the large embroidered slots, and drawstrings at the cuffs which were called "boot blousers". These were also featured on the O.D. '44 Utility Suits.

[rambob]

Flage Guy, As always your Militaria knowledge and collection are superb!! Thanks for the tutorial.

 

Bob

[doyler]

As far as the buttom materials Im not sure its a good indicator of early verses late.Looks like the ones Jim posted as an early jacket has the blackened composition steel painted buttons.The snap buttons(Scovill,Rau,United Carr etc) seen tend to be blackened brass.There are also copper type USMC buttons as well as the flat faced steel buttons we tend to term "economy".

 

Maybe Jim can add his thoughts.Seems on a lot of things these items are more a manufactures variation with the buttons than a specific time frame government contract change.

[Corpsman_1941]

My coat looks as late type, but one interesting think are two straps in central part of jacket, it have other color than rest o jacket, it looks like an early material which Flage Guy posted also buttons are brass not steel black

[Corpsman_1941]

Sorry for bad quality of photo but marked it in Paint, you can see that red marked part of jacket have other color

[Corpsman_1941]

This one is better

[doyler]

Button variations

 

 

 

 

 

['Flage Guy]

Thanks for the comments, fellas...there are guys out there who are better diggers than I am as far as archival documents go; like Jim Moran commented in his book, though, some of these old records were just "File 13ed" as time went by.

 

Corpsman, that's a mighty clean Coat you got there, and a nice rig overall! You shouldn't have any trouble finding the Trousers for it.

 

Ron hit it on the head about the buttons. I've seen M44 Utilities, both 'flaged and O.D., with other types besides the "regulation" U.S.M.C. dungaree buttons.

Whatever was on hand was utilized. A friend of mine was set up a few tables away from me at one of the gun shows in Downtown Houston years ago and he had a mint P44 O.D. Coat for sale. A prospective buyer tried to tell him it wasn't a Marine Corps Coat because it had sunken-center dungaree buttons instead of the U.S.M.C. ones...saying this adamantly while this Coat had the "U.S.M.C." and EGA right there on the left chest!! Takes all kinds, I guess...

Here is a close-up of a pair of pants I had years ago which had flat-faced puptent type buttons...I've been kicking myself in the keester for many years

for selling them- should've kept 'em just because of the buttons

[Corpsman_1941]

I have the same trousers as pair which you posted, I mean buttons-late type with brass pocket snaps without any markings and black flat buttons

[Corpsman_1941]

Here is my new pair of P44 camo trousers

[Corpsman_1941]

close up of flat buttons

['Flage Guy]

Very nice Trousers!!

[GIJive]

All,

Great discussion on the differences in the WWII USMC camouflage uniforms.

 

I would like to provide some more “food for thought” on this topic. I am not disagreeing with ‘Flage Guy in his assessment that the later P44 camouflage uniforms tend to have a more prominent green for the base color. I have observed this also and have a later P44 uniform with a decidedly greener base color.

However, I would like to show an example of an early P42 style camo jacket that has a more prominent green background color than I have previously observed. This is the first coat of this type that I have owned that has this darker green base color. I have photographed it next to another coat that I have that has the more traditional yellow-green base color us ‘flage enthusiasts are familiar with.

I believe that the mixing of the dyes in the printing process has more to do with the color changes than a conscious decision on the part of the manufacturer to change the color to a darker shade. For an example, I show an unissued pair of U.S. Army camouflage trousers that have a defect in the printing of the material in the fly area. Obviously, this defective material was used as scrap for areas of the garment that wouldn’t normally be visible. The white HBT material indicates that the printing process was done on white cloth and the background was apparently printed at the same time as the camouflage pattern stencils. The dye reservoir ran dry or the print nozzles were clogged causing areas of the cloth to not receive any dye. Depending on the mixing of the color dyes the background color would change from one run of material to another, which is what us ‘flage collectors have observed for some time.

Enjoy the photos.

[GIJive]

Here are some additional shots.

 

 

[GIJive]

More.

[GIJive]

U.S. Army Camo Trousers with printing flaw.

[Corpsman_1941]

Great camo's! Anyone have informations when green shade usmc camo sets were intorduced?

[GIJive]

Corpsman_1941,

 

I am not aware of any official documentation regarding a specific change in the color scheme of the WWII camouflage cloth. I believe the 'Flage Guy refers to the "new and improved camouflage" as a way to distinguish the later production camouflage as having a more distinctive green background color than the earlier war manufactured camouflage. Again, my contention is that it just may have just been a color mixing issue.

['Flage Guy]

This has turned into a great discussion, worthy of the Reference Section.

 

As usual, GI shows up and kicks my butt with shots of his unbelievable 'flage

 

Forum member "Alec" (Tulkoff) posted some Marine Corps documents which recorded some experimentation they were doing with different types of dyes, evidently looking for an improvement over the acid-based dyes which faded with use and washing into an almost "day-glow" tone (shown below in this shot taken at the L.A. show). I wish I could remember which discussion it was, or I'd link it.

['Flage Guy]

I also agree with GI and other 'flagists that the various color differences in Wartime camouflage-printed items are just incidental, dependent on who mixed the dyes and what shades were available, etc.. Below is a One-Piece Jungle Suit with a distinctive darker green background shade, hanging next to a more "normal"-shade Jungle Pack. The contract date on this particular Suit is 1942, so it is not made with the "new improved" dyes.

['Flage Guy]

From all photographic evidence, the background shade for 'flaged HBT was intended to be a greenish shade on the "jungle side" right from the start. Here is a 1942 Utility Suit; all 3 components are made from identical dye lots (the same shades as the '42 Coat in GI's pics), but the Trousers are the only part which has retained the original tones, due to lack of laundering. Notice the difference in color between the Pants and the Coat and Cover...