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Correct on the limitations on vets' "stories" -- especially aviators' stories. Use the salt shaker on their tales.

 

He made no mention of how many of the 13s or 15s were in the ETO or when, and I doubt that was covered in demonstrators' "pitch". They were there to tout the wonderfulness of their latest products.

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I like CG-13A very much and am big follower of that glider. I think that it was optimal cargo glider for the Army's needs.

 

The CG-15A was not so big step ahead in development of the US gliderborne forces because it was still too small and ineffective, uneconomical. The 15A would be better for the pilots with its smoother aerodynamic line but 15A still required big number of pilots to carry a GIR to battlefield. In view of the fact that a GIR was composed of approx. 1600 men more than 150 gliders would be needed to carry GIR riders to frontline. Approx. 150 gliders means approx. 300 pilots needed for such an operation. And short-nosed 15A still would be dangerous in rough-field landing with the same as 4A tendency for turnover.

 

The CG-13A was much more economical -- one GIR would require only approx. 60 gliders and 120 pilots. And long-nosed 13A, with its CoG in other place than in 4A/15A, would be much safer for rough-field landings.

 

Below something from my collection. The ID cards with the CG-13A published in August 1944 with "Restricted" status (Charles, if you want the scans for your next book let me know). Were they for the USAAF fighter pilots to avoid shooting down new unknown glider?

 

And to satisfy Gregory, it had brake pedals for the co-pilot. :D

:lol: :thumbsup:

You know very well that I love USAAF GPs the same as you and am stringing with them. I would give them the best possible cargo glider for their hard work for the GIRs. And lightly armored as Soviet BDP cargo glider of WWII era… :)

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I could use some help. This was sent to me as a CG-4A assigned to the 440th TCG while in England. I've never seen one quite like this. Look at the landing gear, the nose, I don't see any skids, is that some kind of fin on the side of the canopy? Even the window configuration is different. Now I even think the wing light looks different to me.

 

sactroop, as Gregory says, this is a CG-15A.

 

1. Do you have picture showing the serial number?

 

2. Do you know on what field in England this photos was made?

 

If this was 440 TCG, the photo could be the first CG-15A to arrive and assembled in England in early 1945.

 

Note in bottom left on the ground what looks to be a bench from a CG-4A.

 

Charles Day

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Hey guys , GREAT stuff on all the types of gliders , I have a question I hope the forum members and "Glider" fans" can help with , I know there were quite a few units that used the gliders in the USAAF/US ARMY , do any of the forum members have unit emblem patches/photos of these units ????

 

Or photos of the C-47 units that towed them if they had "specific" tow unit emblems ?????? I have found a few on the net that have not been able to ID and would like to get them tracked down, but would also like very much to see any emblem/s involved with the gliders/towing units , thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Johnny

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There were no "Glider Squadrons" (except maybe at Stateside training bases).

 

Each Troop Carrier Squadron TO&E included a Glider Section -- ON PAPER. There never enough Glider Pilots, glider mechanics or gliders to actually fill such Sections. Therefore, when a glider combat operation was planned, there was much scurrying around to locate and marshal the people and equipment necessary. I knew a GP with three combat missions: S France, Holland and the Rhine. He and his mates were shuttled around wherever and whenever their presence was a priority.

 

Because the GPs seldom stayed with one TCS more than a few weeks, they didn't much invest in the emblems of their host units. I have seen many pictures of GPs overseas, including them in flight jackets, and cannot recall any squadron or Group emblems. Anybody else able to cite pix WITH emblems?

 

They also tended to wear just the plain USAAF SSI, not the SSI of a specific numbered Air Force. In the ETO in 1945, they began to take up the IX Troop Carrier Command SSI.

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For a different take on the situation in a theater other than ETO consider Flight Officer John Coogan (better know in show business as Jackie Coogan or even Uncle Fester). F/O Coogan was a glider pilot assigned to 1st Air Commando Group in CBI for the duration of his overseas tour of duty. Here are pictures of Coogan wearing the CBI SSI and of a flight jacket attributed to him (source National Museum of the U.S. Air Force. Link here).

 

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Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:


"To every man upon this earth death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,


For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods."

 

 

 

 

 

 


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And for my good friend, Gregory, here is a great shot of Staff Sergeant Coogan in training at Twentynine Palms, Calif. ca. August 1942.

 

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Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:


"To every man upon this earth death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,


For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods."

 

 

 

 

 

 


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And for my good friend, Gregory, here is a great shot of Staff Sergeant Coogan in training at Twentynine Palms, Calif. ca. August 1942.

 

Cool picture of Coogan. Check the Sgt insignia. Not plain, not T, not S, but with Air Corps prop and wings---> Flying Sergeant.

 

F/O Coogan was back in the states later in 1944 and was assigned to a War Bond drive, glider demonstration team headed by then Captain Lee Jett. They flew mainly in the midwest area, but did fly to southwest for one trip. Mr. Jett kept all his orders for these locations until about five years ago. One day on the phone after he told me he had just thrown them away, he said, "You would not have been interested in those, would you?" These demonstrations are where Coogan or John Bryant would taxi the glider and, for the spectators, stop on a dime.

 

Charles Day

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Cool picture of Coogan.

The image is doubly interesting.

 

At what model of civil glider sits Jackie Coogan?! :w00t:

I have checked out not only entire T-series of the USAAF's gliders but also reviews of US 1930s-1940s era civil gliders and nothing is similar to such a canopy and fuselage nose section as can be seen in Coogan's image posted?

 

Any theories?


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The image is doubly interesting.

 

At what model of civil glider sits Jackie Coogan?! :w00t:

I have checked out not only entire T-series of the USAAF's gliders but also reviews of US 1930s-1940s era civil gliders and nothing is similar to such a canopy and fuselage nose section as can be seen in Coogan's image posted?

 

Any theories?

 

Gregory, This picture of Coogan was made at 29 Palms (You can see part what I call "the motel" in the background). If you have the color image of 29 Palms showing the soaring gliders lined up, I believe the glider Coogan is sitting in is the glider far right, parked behind #14 and #20 next to the red and blue soaring glider. (Note, if the hangar is on the left, your image is one of those printed with the negative upside down.) I don't have photos of all the impressed TG gliders, but would it be a Franklin or Frankfort; if not, then one of the other impressed soaring gliders. Maybe someone knows the names and models of impressed soaring gliders assigned to 29 Palms from Jan 1942 to Feb. 1943?

 

I don't know when Coogan did his soaring glider training at 29 Palms, but he graduated with his G wings from Victorville the middle of January 1943. Thus, the 29 Palms image of him would have been made during last 3 or 4 months of 1942?

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There were no "Glider Squadrons" (except maybe at Stateside training bases).

 

Each Troop Carrier Squadron TO&E included a Glider Section -- ON PAPER. There never enough Glider Pilots, glider mechanics or gliders to actually fill such Sections. Therefore, when a glider combat operation was planned, there was much scurrying around to locate and marshal the people and equipment necessary. I knew a GP with three combat missions: S France, Holland and the Rhine. He and his mates were shuttled around wherever and whenever their presence was a priority.

 

Because the GPs seldom stayed with one TCS more than a few weeks, they didn't much invest in the emblems of their host units. I have seen many pictures of GPs overseas, including them in flight jackets, and cannot recall any squadron or Group emblems. Anybody else able to cite pix WITH emblems?

 

They also tended to wear just the plain USAAF SSI, not the SSI of a specific numbered Air Force. In the ETO in 1945, they began to take up the IX Troop Carrier Command SSI.

These "Stateside" unit may be some of the ones I have seen the emblems of , one I know has to be a TCS as it is on the side of a C-47 , it has an running "American" Indian with a tomahawk on a round background, another shows the tail end of a tow aircraft with 2 0r 3 gliders being towed behind it .

Johnny

I'm am hoping that some forum members will post some if they have them !!!!!!!!

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There were no "Glider Squadrons" (except maybe at Stateside training bases).

 

Each Troop Carrier Squadron TO&E included a Glider Section -- ON PAPER. There never enough Glider Pilots, glider mechanics or gliders to actually fill such Sections. Therefore, when a glider combat operation was planned, there was much scurrying around to locate and marshal the people and equipment necessary. I knew a GP with three combat missions: S France, Holland and the Rhine. He and his mates were shuttled around wherever and whenever their presence was a priority.

 

Because the GPs seldom stayed with one TCS more than a few weeks, they didn't much invest in the emblems of their host units. I have seen many pictures of GPs overseas, including them in flight jackets, and cannot recall any squadron or Group emblems. Anybody else able to cite pix WITH emblems?

 

They also tended to wear just the plain USAAF SSI, not the SSI of a specific numbered Air Force. In the ETO in 1945, they began to take up the IX Troop Carrier Command SSI.

These "Stateside" unit may be some of the ones I have seen the emblems of , one I know has to be a TCS as it is on the side of a C-47 , it has an running "American" Indian with a tomahawk on a round background, another shows the tail end of a tow aircraft with 2 0r 3 gliders being towed behind it .

Johnny

I'm am hoping that some forum members will post some if they have them !!!!!!!!

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If you have the color image of 29 Palms showing the soaring gliders lined up, I believe the glider Coogan is sitting in is the glider far right, parked behind #14 and #20 next to the red and blue soaring glider. (Note, if the hangar is on the left, your image is one of those printed with the negative upside down.)

If you are right and Coogan sits in the glider mentioned by you then it is Briegleb BG-6 aka XTG-9. I took magnifying glass to look what submodel of the BG-6 is it (with strengthened struts or not) but image is too small. Painting scheme seems to be the same in both images -- I mean blue fuselage and yellow wings which are dark gray and light gray respectively in b-w photo posted by Wailuna.

 

A very rare bird! :thumbsup:

 

:)


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My father in law did his solo glider training also at 29 Palms. I can't be positive of the exact date but I think Aug of 42 would have been too early. Most likely a 43 time frame. He remembers training in one of the schweizer glider models.


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My father in law did his solo glider training also at 29 Palms. I can't be positive of the exact date but I think Aug of 42 would have been too early. Most likely a 43 time frame. He remembers training in one of the schweizer glider models.

You are right. Charlie Day mentioned above wartime color photo of 29 Palms. Civilian Schweizer SGS 2-8 can be seen over there. That glider had also its military variation called Schweizer TG-2. During WWII both variations were used at 29 Palms.


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Ironically, also the Germans had their contribution to the USAAF GPs training. For example such a "Proud of the 3rd Reich", as high-performance Rhönsperber glider served in 1942 at Lockbourne Army Air Base for training of the USAAF's GPs. In interwar period that glider belonged to famed US glider pilot Emil Lehecka, next to Joe Steinhouser.

 

Below the US-operated Rhönsperber can be seen when it was civil glider registered NC17898 and when it took part in the 9th National Soaring Contest, Elmira, 1938. The second image shows the same Rhönsperber in 1942 at Lockbourne when it was repainted and served as the USAAF training glider called TG-19.

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You are right. Charlie Day mentioned above wartime color photo of 29 Palms. Civilian Schweizer SGS 2-8 can be seen over there. That glider had also its military variation called Schweizer TG-2. During WWII both variations were used at 29 Palms.

 

Sactroop and Gregory,

 

29 Palms glider training was only from Jan 1942 to Feb 1943.

 

Do you know if the soaring gliders at Lockbourne (glider training only from middle June to end of Sept 1942) were taken to Stuttgart as were the CG-4A gliders?

 

Charles Day

 

PS., the Germans also contributed a Kranich but it was never used for training.

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29 Palms glider training was only from Jan 1942 to Feb 1943.

Of more interesting gliders there and then was also the Briegleb BG-8. I am not sure if it is confirmed in the documents that this specimen was called XTG-13 in the USAAF?

 

Do you know if the soaring gliders at Lockbourne (glider training only from middle June to end of Sept 1942) were taken to Stuttgart as were the CG-4A gliders?

I am unable to help in that case unfortunately.

 

The Germans also contributed a Kranich but it was never used for training.

Yes, let's add also Stiglmeier Stick, Göppingen Gö 1 Wolf, Göppingen Gö 3 Minimoa, Göppingen Gö 5, Segelflugzeugbau Kassel 20 and Grunau 8.

 

Sometimes, in selected aspects, my opinion about the US Army's American Glider Program decision makers is not good, but I would congratulate them one decision -- to develop own American design of the towing hooks and releases and do not copy neither German nor other world's solutions. In interwar period underdeveloped towing hooks and releases were main cause of accidents in soaring/gliding. The USAAF researched Polish, German and British hooks but never decided to copy them in 100 percent but to develop as reliable own hook as possible. The German precision mechanics of that time was famous in the world but of interest is the fact that for instance the Canadians had very bad opinion about the German hooks. Beverley S. Shenstone, the President of Soaring Association of Canada, called the German hooks "Rube Goldberg type". Can it be greater insult for the nazis?

 

:-)


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Gregory, This picture of Coogan was made at 29 Palms (You can see part what I call "the motel" in the background). If you have the color image of 29 Palms showing the soaring gliders lined up, I believe the glider Coogan is sitting in is the glider far right, parked behind #14 and #20 next to the red and blue soaring glider. (Note, if the hangar is on the left, your image is one of those printed with the negative upside down.)

 

If you are right and Coogan sits in the glider mentioned by you then it is Briegleb BG-6 aka XTG-9. I took magnifying glass to look what submodel of the BG-6 is it (with strengthened struts or not) but image is too small. Painting scheme seems to be the same in both images -- I mean blue fuselage and yellow wings which are dark gray and light gray respectively in b-w photo posted by Wailuna.

 

A very rare bird! :thumbsup:

 

:)

It is a good thing to have the American pre-WWII aviation magazines. I researched that BG-6 even deeper and due to painting scheme of that glider it looks like Jackie Coogan is sitting in the BG-6 registered NC 28369. That glider was company's demonstrator of the Briegleb Aircraft Co., Inc.


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Yep, CG-15A, which was basically an updated CG-4A. This thread is awesome guys, keep it going!

 

I had the privelege of working at the Silent Wings Museum for a while when I was in grad school at Texas Tech. Haven't been back in a while, but I know they are working on building two Horsa gliders with a museum in the UK so that both museums can display a full sized Horsa along side a CG-4A.

 

http://www.assaultgliderproject.co.uk/AGT_...te/Welcome.html

http://www.ci.lubbock.tx.us/newsPage.aspx?ID=3080

 

Pretty amazing stuff!

 

Jon

 

 

Jon, you better get back to them museum to see the changes.

 

CG-15A was super update: 30 mph higher red line speed; 20 foot shorter wing span, 500 lb higher load capacity including a 16th man, loading platform built into nose, and Flaps. In my opinion had the US started the glider program 1.5 to 2 years earlier, the 15A would have become the production glider rather than the 4A.

 

Charles Day

 

I'm attending Texas Tech right now and every now and then visit the Silent Wings Museum, mostly for events held there. I don't think much visible progress has been made on the Horsa glider they have. The parts and segments of the glider they have out on display are the same for the past couple years. The sign still describes it as a "restoration in progress" but they may be having difficulties finding and/or making what they need.

 

Now the complete Waco glider they have on the main floor is very well done. They also have an extra cockpit frame used to show the mechanics, as well as another cockpit and partial frame used in a "landed and unloading" diorama.


Interested in items related to:

-Amarillo A.A.F. / Amarillo Air Force Base

-Military instillations located in the Texas Panhandle, South Plains, and West Texas.

-"F" Company, 142nd Infantry Regiment, 36th Infantry Division (Texas National Guard)

-413th Civil Affairs Battalion (USAR)

donation2016.gifdonation2017.gifdonation2019.gif

In Memoriam:

CSM Juan H. Hernandez - U.S. Army WWII, Korea, Vietnam

RM1c William C. Denney - U.S.S. McDermut (DD-677) Korea

 

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I'm attending Texas Tech right now and every now and then visit the Silent Wings Museum, mostly for events held there. I don't think much visible progress has been made on the Horsa glider they have. The parts and segments of the glider they have out on display are the same for the past couple years. The sign still describes it as a "restoration in progress" but they may be having difficulties finding and/or making what they need.

 

Now the complete Waco glider they have on the main floor is very well done. They also have an extra cockpit frame used to show the mechanics, as well as another cockpit and partial frame used in a "landed and unloading" diorama.

That Horsa was laying in a pile back in the 90's also, same sign. They also had two m2a1 tracks under restoration. I imagine those are gone by now.

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That Horsa was laying in a pile back in the 90's also, same sign. They also had two m2a1 tracks under restoration. I imagine those are gone by now.

 

I believe they are gone, at least I've never seen any there. Just a couple jeeps, a nebelwerfer, and aircraft tow tractor on exhibit.

 

If they are making progress on the Horsa, it's not visible to the public. It'd be very cool to see a restored one in that museum next to the Waco.


Interested in items related to:

-Amarillo A.A.F. / Amarillo Air Force Base

-Military instillations located in the Texas Panhandle, South Plains, and West Texas.

-"F" Company, 142nd Infantry Regiment, 36th Infantry Division (Texas National Guard)

-413th Civil Affairs Battalion (USAR)

donation2016.gifdonation2017.gifdonation2019.gif

In Memoriam:

CSM Juan H. Hernandez - U.S. Army WWII, Korea, Vietnam

RM1c William C. Denney - U.S.S. McDermut (DD-677) Korea

 

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