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:D

 

Nice pictures.

 

Regards

Ben


My interest is all about the US paratroopers in Normandy and Southern France.

I like too the FSSF and his action in Southern France.

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:D Nice pictures.

Yes, in my childhood I liked very much The Bugs Bunny Show but I did not realize that it has been:

 

a] pre-WWII cartoon

b] so well-known

c] a mascot of Lubbock Field based glider pilots of WWII period

 

:D

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BTW -- does anybody know what are two things I marked white arrows below? One of them looks like big Venturi tube (on canopy frame), but what is this mast in front of canopy?

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BTW -- does anybody know what are two things I marked white arrows below? One of them looks like big Venturi tube (on canopy frame), but what is this mast in front of canopy?

 

 

My best guess on the mast would be that it is a Pitot Tube.

 

Bagman


PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER, SADLY, HAS PASSED AWAY

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...Lubbock Field based glider pilots of WWII period...

Greg, do you have the actual announcement shown? Is there a roster of graduates inside, which might show interesting details about an individual graduate's rank and branch of service?


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Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the Gate:


"To every man upon this earth death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds,


For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods."

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Hello Gents,

 

Thanks for replies.

 

My best guess on the mast would be that it is a Pitot Tube.

Who knows, maybe you are right although I have never seen such a doubled system with both Venturi and Pitot tubes if I guess correctly of course that device on canopy frame is Venturi. Also L-shaped design for Pitot tube would be less typical for this meter because basic design of Pitot is with straight tube. But who knows, you may be right because American aviation industry through some time preferred L-shaped Pitots instead of simplier system with straight tube.

 

Greg, do you have the actual announcement shown? Is there a roster of graduates inside, which might show interesting details about an individual graduate's rank and branch of service?

Unfortunately it is only a cover and I do not have a content.

 

Best regards

 

Greg


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The large "L" shaped device should be a pitot tube. In that "L" is the pressure chamber, and given the operating speeds of a glider and their compactness and smiplicity, this large pitot system would gather as much air as possible, even at very slow speeds.

 

The venturi tube atop the cockpit makes sense too. In that era, they were used as a very simple means to operate a gyrocompass.

 

There were better such systems in WW II but a glider didn't need the weight, didn't have the electrical system to support them, and, they were built cheap. I'm no expert on the CG-3, but the simplistic venturi and pitot tube devices make perfect sense on a 1940's glider.

 

Will

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Hello Will,

I want to thank you very much because your reply forced me to re-fresh my knowledge and remembrance of the period when I was a pilot, also glider. Refreshing in my brain good old days of my life I looked to my favourite Flight Instruments handbook of 1936 where all possible flight instruments are precisely described together with their physics rules of operating. I love those old wooden gliders because I was trained basically in very old glider identical from aerodynamics and technology points of view as American 1940s gliders. In my case it was SZD-10bis A "Czapla" glider with only 17.1 glide ratio -- not much more than in the US Army gliders. I did 75 flights at the "Czapla" controls during winch launch course. It was not state-of-the-art luxury composite 60 glide ratio "Ferrari" as modern gliders but flying trunk with the wind in cockpit and a symphony of various sounds as "viuuu", "ziuuu", "psiuuu" etc. That is why I admire so much WWII period glider pilots.

Below is good old trunk SZD-10bis A "Czapla" that trained me to fly.

EDIT: Picture lost

 

The large "L" shaped device should be a pitot tube. In that "L" is the pressure chamber, and given the operating speeds of a glider and their compactness and simplicity

Yes, I agree that it must be either Pitot tube or well-known before WWII Badin tube. The last mentioned system was free of almost all weak points of Pitot tube. Badin tube was short and could be L-shaped as I can see in pre-war materials. I do not know which system, Pitot or Badin, was preferred by American glider designers but I would be a little closer to opinion that CG-3 above may be equipped with Badin tube.

 

this large pitot system would gather as much air as possible, even at very slow speeds.

Yes, I agree that for CG-3 designers their task was to give the pilots precise information about air speed and what is more at very low speeds and relatively low altitudes. For these parameters (low speeds and low altitudes) Venturi tube is better than Pitot one. That is why – in my opinion – the CG-3 designers doubled air speed measurement in this glider and they added, just in case, Venturi system. I do not know CG-3 instrument panel unfortunately but I am curious about how they solved air speed information at instrument panel? There was no hybrid air speed indicators (ASI) then taking pressed air from two various systems and computing it to one AIS. Was instrument panel equipped with two ASIs of two various air speed measurement systems? It would be a little strange. CG-4A had only one ASI.

 

The venturi tube atop the cockpit makes sense too. In that era, they were used as a very simple means to operate a gyrocompass.

Bravo Will, you are unique expert today. At present almost nobody knows that Venturi tube was in fact two systems -- simple and doubled. The second mentioned served not only for ASI but also as a drive system for various gyro-operated instruments.

 

There were better such systems in WW II but a glider didn't need the weight, didn't have the electrical system to support them, and, they were built cheap. I'm no expert on the CG-3, but the simplistic venturi and pitot tube devices make perfect sense on a 1940's glider.

Yes, you are absolutely right. The only one point I am not sure what CG-3 designers used is L-shaped device. I am not quite sure if it is Pitot or Badin because correctly measuring Pitot in 1930s/1940s had to be long enough. This system required a few meters (yards) tube for correct measure whereas Badin could be very short (a foot or two) for correct operating.

Thank you Will very much for your post.

Best regards

Greg

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Hi Greg,

 

I'm glad that I was of some assistance.

 

I agree with your points and you raised a thought or two in my mind as well. One such thought is the noise factor of those old gliders. I can imagine the orchestra of sounds that was heard inside a big Waco full of troops as it headed for the ground. The word "soaring" doesn't exactly come to mind either !

 

I did some reading on the Czapla and that is an interesting story too.

 

Older aircraft were so simplistic. My father was a navy pilot in WW2 and trained in the Stearman in 1942. He thought that was low-tech even then !

 

Cheers,

 

Will

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There were better such systems in WW II but a glider didn't need the weight, didn't have the electrical system to support them, and, they were built cheap.

 

Hello Will,

 

Electricity and interwar/early war American gliders are interesting subjects. I do not know detailed CAA regulations of that period. Soaring was in embryonic phase then in the USA that is why I do not know what the CAA required, if only, from glidermen and their wooden machines -- if it was allowed to fly gliders at dusk and night for example? If so, did the CAA require full set of lights typical for the aircraft? I do not know unfortunately. I may tell only about the factors that can be seen since American Glider Program was set up in 1942.

 

When it comes to on-board electricity and, for example, CG-4A assault glider various materials indicate that there were three variations of on-board lights in the CG-4As. I do not know unfortunately how they were powered -- if by battery or pneumatically by so-called double Venturi nozzle powering generator? Somehow or other as can be seen at the photographs or drawings there were three variations of lights in the CG-4As:

 

1. Wing and tail lights.

2. Wing and tail lights as well as landing lights.

3. Wing and tail lights, landing lights and recognition lights typical for American military aviation i.e. white, green, red and amber.

 

In every variation lights panel and/or recognition lights switch was situated at left side of instrument panel close to Pilot-commander of the glider. Below I showed the simplest variant No. 1 where only wing and tail lights panel was installed in CG-4A. I marked it red arrow.

 

Regards

 

Greg

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What I found! w00t.gif:lol:

 

When I was trained in the gliders it was not allowed to:

- smoke

- drink alcohol

- have plastic goggles (glass only)

 

:P:D

 

WWII era was a little other period. The glider pilots were an object of various marketing activities.

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Hello,

 

Craig gave very good title for this topic -- so flexible that it may be good place to show American pre-war and wartime literature dedicated to the US ex-soarers and/or glider pilots/glider troops who had to wear military uniform to defend democracy all the world over during WWII.

 

For all people interested in the American military gliding I would like to recommend the book which was "The Bible" for all American soarers in interwar period. The book 1st edition took place in 1930 (379 pages) and its 6th edition was in 1944 (385 pages).

 

I mean Edwin W. Teale's "The Book of Gliders" (E. P. Dutton & Co., Inc., New York 1930) -- one of my favourite books at my bookshelves. The roots of American soaring are described very well in this book though it would be hard to find great number of military threads there. The 1930s were very good time for the German militarized soaring but not for its American counterpart because US armed forces were extremely sceptic towards glider-based training for military. When American military authorities had short-sighted policy when it comes to soaring, wise American officers looked at this problem in the other way. Col. Charles A. Lindbergh is quoted by the author when Lindberg stated: "The student who takes his primary training on a glider has the advantage of knowing how to maneuver without motor power and will have a finer feel of his plane than the one who has already had a powerful engine to pull him out of difficulty". Looking at my aviation experience I may tell that Lindbergh was right and he told very wise thing -- the question is if America and its military listened it?

 

I know 1st edition and I do not know what was added at six additional pages of 1944 edition. If it was anything about military gliding maybe some day a forumer will write something about it. In the meantime I recommend 1930 edition because it was written with big author's talent.

 

The book contains 19 Chapters under the titles of:

Preface

Introduction by William H. Bowlus

I. Flying Without Motors

II. The History of Gliding

III. How a Glider Flies

IV. Types of Gliders

V. Noted Glider Pilots

VI. Famous Flights

VII. How to Choose a Spot for Gliding

VIII. How to Launch a Glider

IX. How to Fly a Glider

X. Soaring

XI. Cloud Flying

XII. Winning a Pilot's License

XIII. How to Build a Glider

XIV. How to Organize a Glider Club

XV. How to Hold a Glider Meet

XVI. Glider Words and What They Mean

XVII. Milestones in Glider History

 

Moreover:

▪ 23 photographs

▪ 75 drawings

 

Fantastic book -- I recommend for all who love also WWII gliders.

 

Best regards

 

Greg

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I believe I kind of answered the lights variations and power under another topic.

 

The pictured glider on the life magazine cover is the XCG-3, 8 passenger. Only one was built (by WACO). The canopy hinged horizontally on the starboard side and the troops had to jump from the port side from that height to exit. After tests, the complete nose was redesigned, adding two side by side doors on the port side for faster in and out by the troops. This also changed the glider to a 9 passenger and changed the model designation to CG-3A. The men in the glider were enlisted men who were assigned to CCAAF and who posed the picture for the Life photographer. The "pilot" is a non-pilot; a Sergeant, who was a friend of Chet Decker's and who crewed for Decker for some of his civilian soaring glider flying. Both were assigned to CCAAF.

 

The picture of the CG-4A posted by Craig is a cropped image of one of the two XCG-4 gliders, flying, still painted in the yellow and blue training colors after the dorsal fin was added and before the USAAF changed the US star by removing the red meat ball from the center of the star. This is a very significant historical photo to me. Besides this particular newspaper "clipping" being cropped, the Wright Field photo department doctored the image by making the area on the ground below the glider look like a forest and they changed the highway and railroad embankment that runs parallel to the highway. The area below the glider (including the area cropped from the posted picture) to the right of the "fake" (white line) road is Wright Field. The top of the vertical stabilizer is pointing to what then was Patterson Field. The area immediately behind (hidden by) the fuselage tail-end is Huffman Prairie where the Wright Brothers flew. The hill top location of the Wright Brothers Memorial is approximately behind (hidden by) the glider between the leading end of the dorsal fin and the trailing edge of the wing.

 

Glider Pilot rank and branch of service: Unless higher rank going into the training program, approximately 95% of the graduating Glider Pilots were given rank of Flight Officer. The other 5% were 2Lt. or 1Lt. All were assigned to Troop Carrier except a hand full from various classes were assigned to CCAAF or Wright Field.

 

Charles Day

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I could use some help. This was sent to me as a CG-4A assigned to the 440th TCG while in England. I've never seen one quite like this. Look at the landing gear, the nose, I don't see any skids, is that some kind of fin on the side of the canopy? Even the window configuration is different. Now I even think the wing light looks different to me.

 

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That's the CG-15A.

 

Yep, CG-15A, which was basically an updated CG-4A. This thread is awesome guys, keep it going!

 

I had the privelege of working at the Silent Wings Museum for a while when I was in grad school at Texas Tech. Haven't been back in a while, but I know they are working on building two Horsa gliders with a museum in the UK so that both museums can display a full sized Horsa along side a CG-4A.

 

http://www.assaultgliderproject.co.uk/AGT_...te/Welcome.html

http://www.ci.lubbock.tx.us/newsPage.aspx?ID=3080

 

Pretty amazing stuff!

 

Jon


In memory of 1LT Julius C. Goldman, XO of F/330th, 83rd Infantry Division 1944-45.

Come see what's new at the US Army Air Defense Artillery Museum on Facebook: US Army ADA Museum


Looking for P-47 and Tactical Reconnaissance Unit photographs and any items associated with WWII Jewish fighter pilots.

Also seeking photos, documents and associated materials from the 3rd Armored Division and 83rd Infantry Division in January 1945.

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Jon, you better get back to them museum to see the changes.

 

CG-15A was super update: 30 mph higher red line speed; 20 foot shorter wing span, 500 lb higher load capacity including a 16th man, loading platform built into nose, and Flaps. In my opinion had the US started the glider program 1.5 to 2 years earlier, the 15A would have become the production glider rather than the 4A.

 

Charles Day

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Charles,

 

I definitely need to get back there. My wife's best friend is still in Lubbock, so we may get back there this year. If we do, I will definitely be stopping off to see Joe and the Museum!

 

The CG-15 was definitely a major improvement over the CG-4A, but the basic airframe was mostly the same. The biggest improvement was the nose and the towing style. On the CG-4A, the tow point was mounted high on the "forehead" of the canopy, which led to some issues with towing, CG and some other issues. The CG-15 moved the tow point to the ADL (Aircraft Datum Line, that imaginary line that runs through the center of the aircraft from nose to tail) and the nose redesign allowed for a much better and more efficient tow. It also helped improve the glider aerodynamically.

 

Cheers!

 

Jon


In memory of 1LT Julius C. Goldman, XO of F/330th, 83rd Infantry Division 1944-45.

Come see what's new at the US Army Air Defense Artillery Museum on Facebook: US Army ADA Museum


Looking for P-47 and Tactical Reconnaissance Unit photographs and any items associated with WWII Jewish fighter pilots.

Also seeking photos, documents and associated materials from the 3rd Armored Division and 83rd Infantry Division in January 1945.

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The CG-15 also had shortened wings, some reinforcement of the tubular structure, and a reinforced nose (under the new skin it resembled the "Griswold nose" or "cow-catcher" external array applied to many CG-4As as a defense against ground obstacles). IIRC the "glass" of the nose was also different, for greater strength.

 

I knew a GP (three combat landings in S France, Holland and VARSITY) who participated in a new equipment demonstration after V-E Day. He got to fly the CG-15 and the larger CG-13 and thought they were greatly better. He told me he came close to punching out the hosts (from HQ, IX TCC) when he found out the 15 and 13 COULD have been available for the Rhine and even the Holland drop, but were not, due to a decision by "some brass hat idiot". "You mean I went to war in &%$# CG-4As while you $$^*(@# were holding better gliders BACK??!!"

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"... when he found out the 15 and 13 COULD have been available for the Rhine and even the Holland drop, but were not, due to a decision by "some brass hat idiot". "You mean I went to war in &%$# CG-4As while you $$^*(@# were holding better gliders BACK??!!"

 

J.,

This may be true, but in my opinion the brass did not hold back on the 13A and 15A. There were only 137 13A built including the X models and a number of these gliders stayed in the US at Stout and the GP training bases, and a hand full were sent to the Pacific. According to Gen. Brereton's diary, there were only 14 CG-13A gliders on hand in Europe before the Varsity mission.

 

There were only 427 CG-15A gliders delivered by mid 1945. The first seven sent to Europe did not arrive in England until March 27, 1945, not quite in time for Market in September 1944 and 3 days after Varsity, .... With all due respect, some verbal history is a stretch.

 

As before, in my opinion, if the U.S. had started the glider development program 1.5 to 2 years earlier, the CG-15A would have become the production glider rather than the 4A. Gen Arnold's policies for the glider program caused it to suck hind tit to the powered aircraft industry for materials and factories. General Arnold was pushing for glider deliveries and apparently thought gliders could be designed and put into production and built by small companies with facilities hardly larger than five or six gliders in less than six months. In addition, he thought the production cost should have been even lower than Ford's lowest of all the glider manufacturers. One variation of the bolt-on-Griswold nose was integral to the 15A nose (along with the loading ramp) but for some reason production of those steel parts was not prolific and every field kit for a 4A took parts away from a production 15A and visa-versa. The flaps on the 15A allowed it to be landed similarly to the Horsa. And to satisfy Gregory, it had brake pedals for the co-pilot. :D

Charles Day

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