OD MAN Posted June 26, 2011 Share #1 Posted June 26, 2011 Hello! I am searching for a period clear/detailed photo of a 1st pattern USMC camo helmet cover in use during WWII I need one large enough so I can get it printed on quality paper and display it next to a helmet. All the photos I am finding on the net are too grainy or small. Thanks much Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hudson Posted June 26, 2011 Share #2 Posted June 26, 2011 Craig Pickrall posted a photo of one from his collection at http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...post&p=3484 You might look through the rest of that thread for a period photo. Also I found a few large LIFE photos on Google, from the Solomons. Not sure what cover is in use: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APO472 Posted June 26, 2011 Share #3 Posted June 26, 2011 That Camo is Killer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OD MAN Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share #4 Posted June 26, 2011 That's the odd part, I have only found marines wearing 2nd patterns with the slits. So second patterns were apparently used very widely because all I am seeing are slits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OD MAN Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share #5 Posted June 26, 2011 Even this famous photo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OD MAN Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share #6 Posted June 26, 2011 more slits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted June 26, 2011 Share #7 Posted June 26, 2011 I just got an autographed photo that you show in post 4, of the Marine running across Death Valley at Okinawa! The president of the 6th Marine Association gave it to me! But it was a mixed bag with the covers. Of course the 1st pattern dominated very early in the war and then the 2nd pattern grew in appearance as the war went on. You also start seeing a lot of swivel bailed M1 helmets as well! Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1canpara Posted June 26, 2011 Share #8 Posted June 26, 2011 are my eyes deceiving me, or is this Marine wearing his helmet backwards? :think: Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 26, 2011 Share #9 Posted June 26, 2011 First-class photos!!! :w00t: :w00t: As a lifelong 'Flagist* (which sure doesn't mean I know it all), I have to throw in $.02 here...the Sept. '42 spec date of the "slotties", coupled with the fact that after viewing photos starting with the Helmet Cover's premier use in Raider training and in the field at New Georgia and Vella Lavella thus far revealing only slotted Covers, I confess to having some long-standing questions about the non-slotties being 1st issue. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this; I just haven't seen photographic evidence to the contrary. Not trying to be a wiseguy or incite any attempts on my life :pinch: ...again, just my 2 cents... Rick: Yes he is; a couple of the historical records of the Tarawa Battle even go so far as to make note of it in the captions of this photo That seems to be a pretty rare occurrence in vintage pics. By the way: anybody notice the M1928 Meatcan Pouch on the guy with his back to the camera in post #2-photo #3??? And the cut-down 1st 'Flage Jump Smock he's got on??!!?? *Camouflage screwball- specifically W.W.II "Frog" Pattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted June 26, 2011 Share #10 Posted June 26, 2011 are my eyes deceiving me, or is this Marine wearing his helmet backwards? :think: Rick Yes, it is on backwards, maybe to cover his neck from sun and/or to see better! Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 26, 2011 Share #11 Posted June 26, 2011 Yes, it is on backwards, maybe to cover his neck from sun and/or to see better! Cheers, Mike I've always thought it was for unobstructed vision; looks like he's preparing to make a hard dash for some direct delivery of MG ammo :think: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted June 27, 2011 Share #12 Posted June 27, 2011 Hey Flage, ive often wondered the same thing about the slitties maybe being first and perhaps the non slit covers being faster and easier/cost efficient rushed to meet the need for more supplies of helmet covers....and after seeing your documents it really makes me wonder!!.. :think: ...mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted June 27, 2011 Share #13 Posted June 27, 2011 If anyone has a copy of USMC Uniforums and Equipment 1941 - 45 by Bruno Alberti and Laurent Pradier they have some very clear shots of first pattern covers in use. IF I'm remembering correctly, maybe someone could check and scan the photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtdorango Posted June 27, 2011 Share #14 Posted June 27, 2011 If anyone has a copy of USMC Uniforums and Equipment 1941 - 45 by Bruno Alberti and Laurent Pradier they have some very clear shots of first pattern covers in use. IF I'm remembering correctly, maybe someone could check and scan the photos? I think i have that book, will give it a looksie......mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted June 27, 2011 Share #15 Posted June 27, 2011 rare occurrence in vintage pics. By the way: anybody notice the M1928 Meatcan Pouch on the guy with his back to the camera in post #2-photo #3??? And the cut-down 1st 'Flage Jump Smock he's got on??!!?? *Camouflage screwball- specifically W.W.II "Frog" Pattern Yes and how about the use of the WW style first aid kit pouches. Also the guy in the first photo seems to be carring a smachet.The scabbard looks like it has the stud for fastening the cross strap.Also a early pattern First aid pouch. The Man with the BAR belt(in post #4) looks to have the M36 style suspenders too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 27, 2011 Share #16 Posted June 27, 2011 Yeah Mike, get back with us and let us know what you find. We Old Guys are never too old to learn somethin'. Ron: Isn't that Pouch in the first picture a variation of the Wire Cutter Carrier? Looks like the Smock Guy has both an M1910 Dressing Pouch and an M1924-42 model hooked at an angle right behind his Canteen. I've seen a whole lot more W.W.II pics of Marines rigged with M1910 1st Aid Pouches than even the round-flap M.C.-issue Pouches. Yup, them are '36s on the BAR man; wonder if they're marked "U.S." or "U.S.M.C.". Many years ago I would've said they were Army, but I've since learned better (at a co$t, of course :pinch: ).... And how 'bout all them Army Canteen covers??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted June 27, 2011 Share #17 Posted June 27, 2011 Yeah Mike, get back with us and let us know what you find. We Old Guys are never too old to learn somethin'. Ron: Isn't that Pouch in the first picture a variation of the Wire Cutter Carrier? Looks like the Smock Guy has both an M1910 Dressing Pouch and an M1924-42 model hooked at an angle right behind his Canteen. I've seen a whole lot more W.W.II pics of Marines rigged with M1910 1st Aid Pouches than even the round-flap M.C.-issue Pouches. Yup, them are '36s on the BAR man; wonder if they're marked "U.S." or "U.S.M.C.". Many years ago I would've said they were Army, but I've since learned better (at a co$t, of course :pinch: ).... And how 'bout all them Army Canteen covers??? Flage I think your right on the wire cutter pouch.When the pic is blown up I can kinda see an outline of pliars or something.Is he wearing the high top leather Raider boots??Hard to tell. I noticed all those army canteen covers and wondered if they were maybe post WW1 USMC issue ones?? Also the 23 pattern FA pouch.We have talked about this pic in another post on the forum. At any rate really great pictures of some early USMC gear RD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corpsmancollector Posted June 27, 2011 Share #18 Posted June 27, 2011 First-class photos!!! :w00t: :w00t: As a lifelong 'Flagist* (which sure doesn't mean I know it all), I have to throw in $.02 here...the Sept. '42 spec date of the "slotties", coupled with the fact that after viewing photos starting with the Helmet Cover's premier use in Raider training and in the field at New Georgia and Vella Lavella thus far revealing only slotted Covers, I confess to having some long-standing questions about the non-slotties being 1st issue. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this; I just haven't seen photographic evidence to the contrary. post #2-photo #3??? And the cut-down 1st 'Flage Jump Smock he's got on??!!?? *Camouflage screwball- specifically W.W.II "Frog" Pattern Great photos, all. Jim, I am inclined to agree with you on the non-slotties being first issue. I think there is an in depth discussion to be had surrounding them. Does the documentation/spec make any differentiation between the 2? A real abstract school of thought, I'm thinking perhaps there wasn't a first and second pattern at all and all the covers were one in the same. Maybe the 'first pattern' just went through the system in a rush and never had slots put in them, in an effort to get them to the front. Who knows? The Marine wearing the 1st patt camo jump smock, does he also have a shortened t-handle with camo cover? Nice to see a helmet net being worn on a cover on the Marine in the centre and also a sidecap w/EGA in the field, on the Marine on the right. Brilliant picture for sure. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted June 27, 2011 Share #19 Posted June 27, 2011 Great photos, all. Jim, I am inclined to agree with you on the non-slotties being first issue. I think there is an in depth discussion to be had surrounding them. Does the documentation/spec make any differentiation between the 2? A real abstract school of thought, I'm thinking perhaps there wasn't a first and second pattern at all and all the covers were one in the same. Maybe the 'first pattern' just went through the system in a rush and never had slots put in them, in an effort to get them to the front. Who knows? The Marine wearing the 1st patt camo jump smock, does he also have a shortened t-handle with camo cover? Nice to see a helmet net being worn on a cover on the Marine in the centre and also a sidecap w/EGA in the field, on the Marine on the right. Brilliant picture for sure. Will This is a very interesting question and one we can do some research on! Will that does make good sense to me! I think Craig P. may have some insights on this. Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Flage Guy Posted June 28, 2011 Share #20 Posted June 28, 2011 Ron: The sole reason I sounded off about Army Canteen rigs was the visible "U.S." stamps on the ones in the pics- that, and the Canteen's position on the Belt (no high hooks)are the giveaways. Now that you you mention it, I haven't seen many photos of the Marine M1910 Covers (maybe 6-8) in use. Don't know why that is :think: I remember the great thread on the 1st Aid Pouches being hooked up in varying ways- that was a learner for me. I can't at all make out what kind of stompers the Smock Guy has on; all the others seem to have Boondocks with Leggings. Will: I think you've summed up the entire 1st/2nd pattern Helmet Cover controversy very nicely with 2 words: "Who knows?" Until Alec Tulkoff or some other researcher comes up with hard documentation as to what went on, it will probably just remain a little foggy. I do know, however, that when the AGF introduced Helmet Covers for testing which were fabricated after the pattern of Germany's Waffen SS Covers, they did feature foliage slits, and also loops in specific places. I was wondering about the Shovel Cover as well- the Carbine is right in the way (dang). Sure does look like a 'flagie, does it not?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted June 28, 2011 Share #21 Posted June 28, 2011 Ron: The sole reason I sounded off about Army Canteen rigs was the visible "U.S." stamps on the ones in the pics- that, and the Canteen's position on the Belt (no high hooks)are the giveaways. Now that you you mention it, I haven't seen many photos of the Marine M1910 Covers (maybe 6-8) in use. Don't know why that is :think: I agree with you they are army covers. You know the Marines never threw anything away so I wonder how common or uncommon the earlier covers were used??Wonder if they got all used up in the 20s and 30s.I got a early cover in my Raider Corpsmans group.He was in iceland before the war.Maybe he used it there?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OD MAN Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share #22 Posted June 28, 2011 Flage I noticed all those army canteen covers and wondered if they were maybe post WW1 USMC issue ones?? post on the forum. What type of cover are you referring to ("post WWI USMC issue one")? Also what is the Marine M-1910 cover flage mentioned? Is that WWI? I have been learning a lot about Marine gear on this thread. Thanks for your help. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted June 28, 2011 Share #23 Posted June 28, 2011 Justin This was the cover I was reffereing to.It came in my Raider group. THere is a very early Marine cover that has the eagle and anchor snaps too which was pre WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etienne Posted June 28, 2011 Share #24 Posted June 28, 2011 Justin This was the cover I was reffereing to.It came in my Raider group. It's a late WW1 USMC cover ... I guess that some were made during the 20-30s, even if there's no proof, but you can see some on pre-WW2 pictures. There's two features to tell if it's a Marine or Army lined cover : the USMC covers don't have any US stencil and, as early unlined covers, they have high hooks :think: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theorywolf Posted June 28, 2011 Share #25 Posted June 28, 2011 Guys, I don't know much about Canteens and covers, but I recently got this one from a Vet's family that was made in January of 1918 and the Vet wrote "Canal" and New Zealand on the front of the cover. Is this correct for a Marine? Also has a piece of wire on the back. Do you know what it was used for? Thanks. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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