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1892 Shoulder Board/Kepi Emblems


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#1 Brig

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:43 PM

couple of emblems I picked up a few years back, stamped, unmarked with the prongs (look soldered maybe?) for attachment to the kepi covers or shoulder boards of the era. Looking for the opinions of some of you guys with the experience with the really old emblems. I'm still pretty new at them. thanks

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  • Kepi_Front.JPG


#2 Brig

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:43 PM

rears

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  • Kepi_Rear.JPG


#3 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 06:16 AM

Hi Brig, I believe those shown are modern era re-strikes. Made for reenactors and collectors whom would not want to pay for period original. At some time past I saw them offered on a European web site for that purpose. As to be expected... they have made the jump from being what they are (a copy) to a collectible status. Have attached photo of a period original so that you can compare the details of the eagle. s/f Darrell

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  • s.w._cart_bx_013.jpg


#4 Brig

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 07:46 AM

some originals had the shiny patina for boards, correct? or were they all darker like yours?

#5 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 11:54 AM

You are correct, those on the shoulder boards were "shiny" and if memory serves me well... on the kepi as well.

#6 Brig

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:47 PM

surprisingly the detail is quite good, but I don't like comparing my aluminum one to a brass one. here are a few more pics for detail

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  • 1892_1.JPG
  • 1892_2.JPG


#7 Brig

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:50 PM

rear

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#8 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 04:40 PM

Brig,

A few comments on this type of emblem. They aren't aluminum, but should be stamped nickel. Because the originals are stamped from nickel, it doesn't take much polishing to wear down the highlights. Nickel will patina over time, so unless the emblem has been polished recently, should show some patina, especially to the reverse recesses. They have been reproduced for at least the past 10-15, maybe a few years more and are almost impossible to tell from the real McCoy, but there are a few ways. I just hate giving information to the enemy (the fakers), but I'm winding down my world wide search for birds, so what the heck! The newer reproductions almost always have stainless steel attaching wire pins, so that is a real big no-no because I believe stainless steel wasn't invented until just prior to WWI. The solder is almost always very shiny and new looking and we all know that lead based solder that is over 100+ years old will almost always look old. Almost every time I have tried to bend or move an original soldered pin, they have popped right out of the solder, so if the solder looks old, leave the pins alone. Here are two that I believe to be original, but who knows? Both are missing one of the attaching pins from my early inexperience with this type emblem. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/emba0005.gif Both show some degrees of patina, so that's pretty much all I can tell you about what to look for and hopefully you'll find some originals. The emblem on the right has lopped wire pins and this emblem came from a really old established militaria collection, so I'm fairly confident that it's original, but straight pins are also know on originals. Oh, by the way, this pattern emblem comes with opposing birds and anchors for the dress board epaulettes, just like much later collar emblems. Both birds should be facing forward on a matched pair. Very rarely do you see the "wrong way Jakes" or opposing right shoulder emblems, so it gives you a pretty good idea of just how reproduced these "correct direction" emblems are. If there is that many correct or left shoulder emblems available out there, shouldn't there be more of the opposing right shoulder ones also?

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • m1892_nickel_prong_fr.jpg
  • m1892_nickel_prong_rev.jpg

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 04 December 2007 - 01:37 PM.
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#9 Brig

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 04:45 PM

these are tricky emblems, and I think it's something a real expert would have to have hands on to be able to tell. guess these emblems will sit in my case of unknown authenticity for awhile

thanks for all the info though!

#10 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 04:48 PM

Here's another one. This is very thick, heavy nickel emblem with screw post. It isn't thinly stamped like the epaulette emblems. It also looks like it lost it's anti-roll tack many years ago. It's been heavily polished and many of the highlights worn smooth to the obverse.

The screw post is much shorter than what you usually see on emblems and I'm wondering if anyone has seen this with other early emblems? What type of roller nut would it take?

s/f, Gary

Attached Images

  • m1892_nickel_screw_fr.jpg
  • m1892_nickel_screw_rev.jpg


#11 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 08:01 AM

Gary, this emblem you have shared w/ us a few times is the only one I've ever seen of this variation in the heavy nickel (cast/stamped?) configuration... another noticeable feature is the small ring around the base of the screw post, a very unique variation. I presume it would have been equipped w/ the same roller that were typically seen on the bronze and brass lookalikes???

Tim, I believe Gary's comments on you emblems is dead on target. I cannot ever recalling seeing a right shoulder board emblem... that was not mounted to a shoulder board. Granted, the shoulder boards were not around as long as the Kepi and the number of Kepi's surely outnumbered shoulder boards. Nonetheless seeing the shear number of these that come to auction should give on an indication how many fakes and or modern day re-strikes are out there. From my perspective this maybe (for the moment) the most heavily faked EGA being sold today.

Question, has anyone seen what they believe to be a original, that was stamped in any other material other than nickel, such as copper? s/f Darrell

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 04 December 2007 - 01:38 PM.
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#12 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 09:56 AM

Just came across the photo's of a right shoulder board emblem http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/think.gif Likely a Stokes / Bannerman / Kirk restrike.

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  • 427e_3.jpg
  • 43e0_3.jpg


#13 bobgee

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 10:23 AM

G'Day Mates......
Posting a shot of the right side shoulder knot from the pair that I have, marked by Horstmann and a couple of pics of the 'bird'. Personally, I do not believe that the struck prong-back emblems are knock-offs. They have been available for many years. A friend operated a gunshop here in Houston and had a lot of Stokes-Kirk stuff including a box of these birds. Never heard them to be repros. I have 2 that I bought for a couple of bucks; one dark metal and one in nickle that I will try to dig out and post soon. When these insignia became obsolete in 1904 they ended up at Bannerman and Stokes-Kirk, etc. Just because they are still all over the place doesn't make them bogus. My opinion.......Semper Fi......Bobgee
M1892_Shoulder_knot_rt_side.JPG
M1892_Shoulder_knot_rt_side_EGA.JPG
M1892_Shoulder_knot_rt_side_EGA.CU.JPG

Edited by bobgee, 20 November 2009 - 11:21 AM.
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#14 bobgee

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 11:02 AM

Here's three M1892 emblems that I have. Obverses first.
M1892_EGA_brnz_color_obv.JPG
M1892_EGA_nickle_color_obv.JPG
M1892_Garbarino_EGA__brass_screw_post__obv.JPG

Here's the reverses: Note No. 3. Came with a 7-Bar USS Texas Sampson Marine grouping. He served from 1896 to 1901. I believe this to be his original kepi emblem. My logic on the light struck nickle emblems is that they are near identicle (to me anyway) to the 'regulation' emblem design worn on the kepi but in a more utilitarian meta and in the color prescribed for the insignia.
M1892_EGA_brnz_color_rev.JPG
M1892_EGA_nickle_color_Rev.JPG

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 30 September 2007 - 06:11 AM.
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#15 bobgee

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 11:04 AM

Here's No.3 ObverseM1892_Garbarino_EGA__brass_screw_post__Rev.JPG

#16 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 04:20 PM

Sorry, Bob, but this is where I have to disagree with you. While your bronze and silver "prong backs" appear to be nice originals, ie: nickel coated brass prongs and naked brass prongs, the reproductions or knockoffs I've seen at more than a few militaria shows in Denver and on eBay have shiny stainless steel wire prongs, which to me, is a very big no-no for the period in question. They also have big globs of new shiny solder, unlike the old, turned gray powderish professional solder points yours and mine exhibit. The knockoffs are being sold as such and usual asking price for them is in the $5-$10 range, depending on this guy's mood or who is asking. I made a point of asking where these fakes were coming from and he simply stated West Coast, but that was all he was willing to divulge. A flaky guy who is also known for selling high-end quality repro WWII English made Airborne "Combat Jump" wings with differing degrees of wear. Ah ha! So some of you know of whom I'm speaking! The EGA reproductions are so exact in the stamping of the emblem, that I would almost swear someone found original stamping dies, but don't know that for sure. Next show, I'll try and remember to take my camera and get a shot of his Riker of bogus emblems.

Here are some of my screw backs in this pattern. On both dress emblems and the bronze service emblem, a special note on the rollers. All three are completely different, so I'm wondering which of the three types is most often encountered on this pattern. The conical type on the 2nd dress emblem I have observed on the later pattern M1914 emblems, so could it be a replacement? The 1st dress pattern has rounded edges on the base and the service emblem roller has a squared or sharp edge on the base.

s/f, Gary
Dress

Attached Images

  • 1904_DRESS_ROLLER.jpg
  • 1904_DRESS_REV.jpg
  • 1904_DRESS_FR.jpg

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 04 December 2007 - 01:38 PM.
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#17 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 04:22 PM

Service

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  • 1904_SERV_FR.jpg
  • 1904_SERV_REV.jpg
  • 1904_SERV_ROLLER.jpg


#18 bobgee

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Posted 31 August 2007 - 07:37 PM

Howdy Gary
Maybe I'm just confused. It does happen.........frequently. I'm thinking that I have not seen the Repro M1892 'nickle' emblems with stainless steel prongs of which you speak and which Tim started this thread with..........I'm defending the older Stokes-Kirk emblems which have been around since the 60s & 70s to my knowledge and are the type I posted. I distinctly remember picking out the dark emblem from the shipment of bright nickle pieces along with a couple of the 'shiny' ones. Maybe Stokes-Kirk had the die and it's out there being used............We live and hopefully learn.....S/F........Bob

Edited by bobgee, 20 November 2009 - 11:24 AM.


#19 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 01 September 2007 - 08:51 AM

Good place to insert this "gem". Someone along the line decided to take upon himself to add a new finish to this original. Any suggestions on how to clean it w/o hurting the original finish? Anyone...

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  • 1875_003.jpg
  • 1875_005.jpg


#20 bobgee

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 07:23 AM

A while back there was considerable discussion about the 'vintage' of the nickel silver EGAs of the type as found on the M1892 Enlisted Shoulder Boards. I posted a few pics of several I have had in my collection......probably for 25 to 30 years. I had 2 nickel and 1 bronze-colored emblem and stated I remembered picking a silver and the bronze out of a box at my buddies gun store in Houston, TX. They came from the old Stokes-Kirk firm in Philadelphia which as I recall was a purveyor of old Horstmann and Bannerman items.

It was agreed that the emblems I posted were not current 'fakes' of the type seen lately (last few years) at various gun & militaria shows around the country. I stated I guess I hadn't seen these particular type fakes. I also have a pair of the actual enlisted enlisted shoulder boards which I believe to be totally vintage. They are marked "Horstmann - Phila" on the brass fittings on the reverse. The emblems are identical in finish, dimensions and die-strike details as those on the aforementioned EGAs. By carefully lifting one edge of an EGA on the shoulder board the metal prong can be viewed slightly and has the same appearance of the size and texture of the prongs on the same EGAs. In 'Driscoll' The EGA 1868 - 1968" he describes the "nickel plated Corps devices" worn in the center of the M1892 shoulder knot pads.

In December, Forum member Tim Brig, frustrated with owning 2 fake M1892 examples as described in the previous discussion, offerred one to the first Forum moderator who responded. Not having seen an example of these modern fakes I accepted his kind offer and he sent it to me.

Upon receipt I examined it against the examples in my collection. And, Lo & Behold, they are identicle! Same die! Same finish! Same attaching prongs! Same globs of lead holding the prongs in place! What to make of this????? I was baffled. If Tim's EGA and mine, which I have owned for 25-30 years are identicle, are they Fakes, Restrikes or Old left-over stock.

M1892_EGA_study_2.JPG

M1892_EGA_study_1.JPG

M1892_EGA_study_3.JPG

M1892_EGA_study_4.JPG


Upon close examination of the 4 loose emblems and the 2 on the shoulder boards, I discovered something else. On the emblem that Tim sent me I found 'flash' on the globe in 2 places; both where the tip of the tip of the anchors are next to the Globe. They appear as the 'tip of a pin'. I have tried to mark them on the following pics and with the close-up pics. And again, Lo & Behold, the same 'flash' appears on the 3 EGAs in my collection - but not on the emblems on the shoulder boards. The 'flash' is likely caused by die having developed miniscule cracks and the pressure of the die stamp forces slight excess metal to protrude at the time of stamping. It can easily be removed but is so un-noticeable that it probably hasn't been.

So what does all this mean? My conclusion is that 1) These emblems, designed for the M1892 shoulder boards, and made obsolete in 1904 were NOT commonly worn on the USMC kepis or other headgear of the period. The device properly worn is the stamped heavy brass screw-back emblem in Gilder's metal of basically the same design as the M1892 Nickel Shoulder-knot devices. 2) The emblems posted here are probably Restrikes - that is, made from the original dies, at some point after their obsolescense in 1904. Probably made by Stokes-Kirk in the 1970s or so. They can be identified by the 'flash' as shown. They are not "fakes" but they are not vintage either. They represent to a collector an emblem of the "type" worn way back when the Corps was a very small organization. The genuine version are those found on the 'surplus' shoulder boards that have turned up in the marketplace, made by Horstmann and then sold as collectibles by Stokes-Kirk. There are just too many of these 'Nickel Birds' around to be genuine vintage surplus. BTW The Bannerman firm also listed surplus early EGAs in their catalogs but with only a line-drawing.

I can't account for the Bronze colored emblem but recall it was in the box with all the others.

M1892_EGA_brnz_color_obv.JPG
M1892_EGA_brnz_color_rev.JPG

I think they definitely belong in the collections of EGA afficionados but need to be understood for what they are. Absent any proof to the contary this is my belief. looking forward to all comments and discussion.
Semper Fi.....Bobgee

Edited by bobgee, 14 January 2008 - 08:27 AM.


#21 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:01 AM

Bob, I share your same reservations about these thin planet, stamped emblems. I suspect there are hoards of them and abound everywhere. In this picture, is the flashing (or die crud you refer) to depicted between the anchor tip and globe?

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  • flashing.jpg


#22 bobgee

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:13 AM

All.....the Post posted itself (LOL) before I had finished it so I have revised it.
Enjoy or......? Semper Fi Bobgee

#23 Brig

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:15 AM

Great thread. I'm glad you finally had the chance to do the comparrisons, and glad the emblem went to good use

#24 bobgee

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 02:56 PM

Howdy all - I just can't seem to let this topic sleep. A while back I posted some pics of USMC Emblem buckles that I have. Today while handling them I noticed that one had a screw holding the EGA in place so I decided to "investigate"! This buckle came to me a few years ago with the medals and some related insignia which had belonged to Col. Percy Archer USMC Ret; Deceased in 1937. He was commissioned in 1903 and had no prior enlisted service noted in the records I have on him. He retired in 1937. He held a Navy Cross for service in Nicaragua as well as a Haitian Medaille Militaire and a Nicarguan Medal of Merit. The buckle was obtained at an Estate sale along with his memorabilia and was included when I obtained the group from the first collector to own it. As can be seen in the first pic the nickel EGA is identicle to the M1892 enlisted shoulder board devices under discussion here. Upon disassembly, as shown in Pic 2, we see that it is a stamped EGA, just like ALL the others, except this has a brass screw post soldered to the center for mounting to the brass buckle. easy to see that it has been on this buckle for a looooonnnngggg time. Who made this buckle???? was it a Regulation piece or a "PX" type Marine Corps buckle worn by a Marine officer?

Pic 3 is a side by side reverse comparison with the buckle EGA and the one which Brig was so kind to send. To me the dies are the same. The buckle EGA does not appear to have had prongs.

Pic 4 is of yet another buckle utilizing a M1892 device. However, this one is much heavier and the EGA looks to be brass that has been nickel plated and it is braised on to the buckle so we can't see back side. This buckle also suggests that it was "regulation". But when?

Does any of this stimulate further discussion on these ubiquitous 'antique' M1892EGA insignia? I hope so....Semper Fi....Bobgee

Archer_Buckle_Obv.JPG

Archer_Buckle_Disassembled.JPG

Creat0013.JPG


Buckle_2_piece.JPG

Edited by bobgee, 20 November 2009 - 11:29 AM.


#25 C. Roelens

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Posted 29 January 2008 - 05:42 PM

Howdy all - I just can't seem to let this topic sleep. A while back I posted some pics of USMC Emblem buckles that I have. Today while handling them I noticed that one had a screw holding the EGA in place so I decided to "investigate"! This buckle came to me a few years ago with the medals and some related insignia which had belonged to Col. Percy Archer USC Ret Deceased in 1937. He was commissioned in 1903 and had no prior enlisted service noted in the records I have on him. He retired in 1937. He held a Navy Cross for service in Nicaragua as well as a Haitian Medaille Militaire and a Nicarguan Medal of Merit. The buckle was obtained at an Estate sale along with his memorabilia and was included when I obtained the group from the first collector to own it. As can be seen in the first pic the nickel EGA is identicle to the M1892 enlisted shoulder board devices under discussion here. Upon disassembly, as shown in Pic 2, we see that it is a stamped EGA, just like ALL the others, except this has a brass screw post soldered to the center for mounting to the brass buckle. easy to see that it has been on this buckle for a looooonnnngggg time. Who made this buckle???? was it a Regulation piece or a "PX" type Marine Corps buckle worn by a Marine officer?

Pic 3 is a side by side reverse comparison with the buckle EGA and the one which Brig was so kind to send. To me the dies are the same. The buckle EGA does not appear to have had prongs.

Pic 4 is of yet another buckle utilizing a M1892 device. However, this one is much heavier and the EGA looks to be brass that has been nickel plated and it is braised on to the buckle so we can't see back side. This buckle also suggests that it was "regulation". But when?

Does any of this stimulate further discussion on these ubiquitous 'antique' M1892EGA insignia? I hope so....Semper Fi....Bobgee

Archer_Buckle_Obv.JPG

Archer_Buckle_Disassembled.JPG

Creat0013.JPG
Buckle_2_piece.JPG


you've got me interested. I recently sold one on ebay (290189179046), however; the buyer sent it back because thought it was a polished nickel plated EGA. I would post the link, but I need work on my computer skills.

S/F,

Chuck

Edited by C. Roelens, 29 January 2008 - 05:43 PM.



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