Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:16 AM.
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Fantasy, repro or counterfeit EGA's
Started by
cbuehler
, May 06 2007 07:16 PM
219 replies to this topic
#51
Bob Hudson
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 10:34 AM
In looking at these two pieces the thought occurred: did anyone actually make screwback sweetheart pieces? That is a fastening style not normally used on civilian jewelry. And the Gaunt piece has the stabilizing pin on the back. Looking at the two of these, I vote against them being sweetheart pieces.
#52
C. Roelens
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 11:25 AM
Bobgee's emblem looks flatter and lacks the stabilizing pin. If you look at the shape of the fastening nut on his you will see that it is a similar pattern to the P1937 enlisted EGA's. The fastening nut on mine appears to be of WWI era-1930's vintage. I believe the EGA's are made of two different materials also... mine actually looks like copper. Lastly, I have no doubt that the Gaunt markings and stabilizing pin are original to this piece. Could these have been worn on the campaign hat during the early campaign's overseas other than WWI? Maybe Mike can shed some light on this discussion.
Semper Fi,
Chuck
Semper Fi,
Chuck
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:17 AM.
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#53
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:05 PM
Sorry Chuck, but I'm in total agreement with Bob G. on this emblem. They are of the WWII period and nothing more than sweetheart pieces. I have owned one in sterling (with 100% goldwash) with pin back fastener and have seen another with rhinestone jewels. I also have in my collection one identical to both shown here, with no fastener. This is not a regulation USMC cover emblem...it is WWII sweetheart!
I also believe Bob hit the mark on the Gaunt and London plaques. There have been more and more fake emblems showing up on eBay with these very same plaques applied. I believe there was a very good thread here on the other types of Gaunt fakes with identical Gaunt plaques applied. If you want Maj. Manifor's opinion, I believe you will find it in the fake thread. I'll look and see if I can't find it and post it for you.
s/f, Gary
I also believe Bob hit the mark on the Gaunt and London plaques. There have been more and more fake emblems showing up on eBay with these very same plaques applied. I believe there was a very good thread here on the other types of Gaunt fakes with identical Gaunt plaques applied. If you want Maj. Manifor's opinion, I believe you will find it in the fake thread. I'll look and see if I can't find it and post it for you.
s/f, Gary
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#54
C. Roelens
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 01:00 PM
Thanks Gary. I know this is not a regulation USMC cover emblem, but i'm having a hard time believing that it's a made up sweetheart device. The plaques, screwpost, and stabilizing pin were not glued or soldered to what may have once been a pinback sweetheart device. It is also not a reproduction of that "rare" EGA... that is nonexistant anyway. So, I wonder who's producing these emblems, and why... there is no value in them. Surely, not worth the time discussing, but, it's well built and to me... looks good.
S/F,
Chuck
S/F,
Chuck
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:18 AM.
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#55
teufelhunde.ret
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 01:09 PM
Well it has been interesting to sit on the sidelines for a few hours and watch as this dialogue unfolds. So its time to jump in get the feet wet. These pieces emblems do have an interesting background and history. For some five years now since entering the hobby EGA collecting I have been told and read some interesting history. My thoughts are merely a refection upon this and what I have learned from others here and elsewhere. Let’s start with Gaunt itself… a long, really long history of making various emblems, with locations in New York, Washington & London… perhaps a few other sites? Nonetheless through the past century or longer with each generation of jeweler and or die maker whom have worked with Gaunt, there have been changes in the evolution of design and hallmarks. My own sense is each site had to have some autonomy in the process of design and manufacture. Since there is so little to no written historical references from the Corps or Gaunt, we must draw our own conclusions on their use and just simply their existence.
Insofar as these emblems are concerned, there are creditable gathered conclusions that these emblems were made for service use and those made for sweetheart purposes. It is most likely without the benefit of the historical documentation; the lines between the two have crossed. I have long held the opinion, until someone makes a concerted effort of retrieving the appropriate information, documentation and communication (likely held in the History & museums Division) in the between QM folks, uniform boards and the various makers of emblems over the past century... much of what we speak is just plain conjecture, as well as, some very educated opinions from folks like Bob & Gary who have been at this 30 years and better. For that matter, I am sure there are some emblems that still stump them.
I will also put forth, my sense is there is simply too much faith placed on the guesswork of emblems seen in studio photo’s of 80-100 years ago. Folks the film resolution, paper and lens qualities were just not there to draw some of the conclusions I’ve read. Fuzzy details just do not get better on a scanner. Back to this emblem, like most other EGA enthusiasts, I have seen several variations on this theme, most coming off the sweetheart version, meanwhile a very small number coming off the screw post theme. Was this design, coming from one of Gaunt manufacturing sites, very likely due to the small numbers seen? Until this forum started and this EGA group had gathered, I had never heard or spoken with anyone whom considered these emblems as some sort of fakery? Would someone please point out why now... this piece is anything other than what is was intended to be? Nonetheless, was this emblem with post hallmark unique to one of these sites, most likely because of the numerous hallmark themes seen over the past century? One could even draw the conclusion; because of Bob’s own observations... this is likely not a piece that originated in London as their hallmark practices were different. Therefore, I am of the thought these are original to one of Gaunts manufacturing sites.
In closing, were these make for uniform wear... perhaps. Were they an “authorized” emblem, of course not. Were they worn as Chuck has expressed... my translation here... in the uniform turmoil of the early 20’s and in the post WW1 occupation period, perhaps, I tend to think not. My own opinion is this emblem offered for sale, is more of the WW2 era, to me it simply has that “feel” In the end I suppose we should all approach these with a healthy dose of skepticism. However, my door is open to the possibilities with respect to original and use. If there is someone with known (documented, as in documents, shipping manifests, bill of lading) facts, let them present here. Otherwise, like me... it is just my two cents.
PS... Gary, hope you don’t mind me stealing your Old Testament theme
Insofar as these emblems are concerned, there are creditable gathered conclusions that these emblems were made for service use and those made for sweetheart purposes. It is most likely without the benefit of the historical documentation; the lines between the two have crossed. I have long held the opinion, until someone makes a concerted effort of retrieving the appropriate information, documentation and communication (likely held in the History & museums Division) in the between QM folks, uniform boards and the various makers of emblems over the past century... much of what we speak is just plain conjecture, as well as, some very educated opinions from folks like Bob & Gary who have been at this 30 years and better. For that matter, I am sure there are some emblems that still stump them.
I will also put forth, my sense is there is simply too much faith placed on the guesswork of emblems seen in studio photo’s of 80-100 years ago. Folks the film resolution, paper and lens qualities were just not there to draw some of the conclusions I’ve read. Fuzzy details just do not get better on a scanner. Back to this emblem, like most other EGA enthusiasts, I have seen several variations on this theme, most coming off the sweetheart version, meanwhile a very small number coming off the screw post theme. Was this design, coming from one of Gaunt manufacturing sites, very likely due to the small numbers seen? Until this forum started and this EGA group had gathered, I had never heard or spoken with anyone whom considered these emblems as some sort of fakery? Would someone please point out why now... this piece is anything other than what is was intended to be? Nonetheless, was this emblem with post hallmark unique to one of these sites, most likely because of the numerous hallmark themes seen over the past century? One could even draw the conclusion; because of Bob’s own observations... this is likely not a piece that originated in London as their hallmark practices were different. Therefore, I am of the thought these are original to one of Gaunts manufacturing sites.
In closing, were these make for uniform wear... perhaps. Were they an “authorized” emblem, of course not. Were they worn as Chuck has expressed... my translation here... in the uniform turmoil of the early 20’s and in the post WW1 occupation period, perhaps, I tend to think not. My own opinion is this emblem offered for sale, is more of the WW2 era, to me it simply has that “feel” In the end I suppose we should all approach these with a healthy dose of skepticism. However, my door is open to the possibilities with respect to original and use. If there is someone with known (documented, as in documents, shipping manifests, bill of lading) facts, let them present here. Otherwise, like me... it is just my two cents.
PS... Gary, hope you don’t mind me stealing your Old Testament theme
#56
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 01:49 PM
Hey Darrell, Once in awhile, Old Testament comes in handy! 
For the life of me, I can't seem to find the thread on these "Gaunt London" plaque hallmarks. I do know they were discussed and deemed highly suspect, if not down right reproduction during that discussion. As Bob G. already stated, and I wholeheartedly agree with, we don't believe this type of plaque hallmark was used by the JR Gaunt firm. I'm sure many of the members here have also seen these raised or plaque hallmarks by Gaunt on reproduction Civil War belt buckles coming out of the Gettysburg area. If it walks like a duck, yada yada yada, my best advice is look at all Gaunt plaque hallmarks as suspect.
As for the emblem in question, it is my personal opinion that if the the hallmark plaques and screw post were not added post fact, then it's most likely a complete fabrication or reproduction, most likely done by the same mope that is cranking out the fake "8th & I" emblems shown here. I do know the large flat emblems in question appear on eBay quite frequently, almost always have a WWII sweetheart connection, and come in many different configurations, including pin backs, screw posts, added screw posts, sterling, copper, brass, etc. Do I believe they were ever used as cover or hat emblems? No I do not.
Darrell, maybe you can find and post the thread where these hallmarks were discussed? I'm drawing blanks with my searches?
s/f, Gary
For the life of me, I can't seem to find the thread on these "Gaunt London" plaque hallmarks. I do know they were discussed and deemed highly suspect, if not down right reproduction during that discussion. As Bob G. already stated, and I wholeheartedly agree with, we don't believe this type of plaque hallmark was used by the JR Gaunt firm. I'm sure many of the members here have also seen these raised or plaque hallmarks by Gaunt on reproduction Civil War belt buckles coming out of the Gettysburg area. If it walks like a duck, yada yada yada, my best advice is look at all Gaunt plaque hallmarks as suspect.
As for the emblem in question, it is my personal opinion that if the the hallmark plaques and screw post were not added post fact, then it's most likely a complete fabrication or reproduction, most likely done by the same mope that is cranking out the fake "8th & I" emblems shown here. I do know the large flat emblems in question appear on eBay quite frequently, almost always have a WWII sweetheart connection, and come in many different configurations, including pin backs, screw posts, added screw posts, sterling, copper, brass, etc. Do I believe they were ever used as cover or hat emblems? No I do not.
Darrell, maybe you can find and post the thread where these hallmarks were discussed? I'm drawing blanks with my searches?
s/f, Gary
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:21 AM.
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#57
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 01:56 PM
Darrell... Well said. Its been awhile, but i'll try to get in touch with Pete. If the campaign hat he purchased over 30 years ago with one of these emblems attached is documented, maybe that will help in answering some of these questions.
S/F,
Chuck
S/F,
Chuck
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:21 AM.
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#58
bobgee
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 02:06 PM
From Darrel's post: "Lets start with Gaunt itself a long, really long history of making various emblems, with locations in New York, Washington & London perhaps a few other sites? Nonetheless through the past century or longer with each generation of jeweler and or die maker whom have worked with Gaunt, there have been changes in the evolution of design and hallmarks. My own sense is each site had to have some autonomy in the process of design and manufacture. Since there is so little to no written historical references from the Corps or Gaunt, we must draw our own conclusions on their use and just simply their existence."
Darrel- with all due respect........Gaunt is a firm that has been in business in the U.K. since the early 1800s. They have manufactured all manner of military accoutremonts. TO MY KNOWLEDGE - they have had factories in Birmingham and London. Never to my knowledge have they had a factory in North America. Obviously they have had sales offices in New York but since so few of their USMC pieces are seen they must have not had a successful run against the likes of Hilborn-Hamburger, Gemsco or N.S. Meyer. As we know, if any firm is producing insignia to be worn on military uniforms, it is done to certain specifications provided by the government not speculatively or on the whim of the manufacturer. In the area of 'sweetheart' jewelry, anything that suggests a connection with a sweetheart's branch of service is fair game....it's worn by a civilian on civilian attire. Chuck says in his EBay listing [i]"I cannot state "as a matter of fact" the exact era this EGA may have been worn. I can tell you that a reputable collector found this exact EGA on a documented WWI era Marine Officer's Campaign Hat. It is without a doubt an original JR GAUNT LONDON large EGA appropriate for a hat. It is clearly marked as such on the back."[/i]
Finding a removeable insignia on a hat does give it provenance that both are from the same period. Personally I have beat-up WWI Army campaign hat with a USMC officer hat cord and a double-prong M-1898 nickle emblem that I occasionally wear. Looks good! But it's not vintage. Now when I take the last train out of town, one of my kids may think that like all my stuff.....it's original and vintage (haha!)
My point is that this insignia, particulary the "Gaunt" logos applied are not right for official WWI USMC wear.
I must also disagree that period photographs do not provenance evidence. I believe good ones do. That's my contribution and Testament. Semper Fi.....Bobgee
Darrel- with all due respect........Gaunt is a firm that has been in business in the U.K. since the early 1800s. They have manufactured all manner of military accoutremonts. TO MY KNOWLEDGE - they have had factories in Birmingham and London. Never to my knowledge have they had a factory in North America. Obviously they have had sales offices in New York but since so few of their USMC pieces are seen they must have not had a successful run against the likes of Hilborn-Hamburger, Gemsco or N.S. Meyer. As we know, if any firm is producing insignia to be worn on military uniforms, it is done to certain specifications provided by the government not speculatively or on the whim of the manufacturer. In the area of 'sweetheart' jewelry, anything that suggests a connection with a sweetheart's branch of service is fair game....it's worn by a civilian on civilian attire. Chuck says in his EBay listing [i]"I cannot state "as a matter of fact" the exact era this EGA may have been worn. I can tell you that a reputable collector found this exact EGA on a documented WWI era Marine Officer's Campaign Hat. It is without a doubt an original JR GAUNT LONDON large EGA appropriate for a hat. It is clearly marked as such on the back."[/i]
Finding a removeable insignia on a hat does give it provenance that both are from the same period. Personally I have beat-up WWI Army campaign hat with a USMC officer hat cord and a double-prong M-1898 nickle emblem that I occasionally wear. Looks good! But it's not vintage. Now when I take the last train out of town, one of my kids may think that like all my stuff.....it's original and vintage (haha!)
My point is that this insignia, particulary the "Gaunt" logos applied are not right for official WWI USMC wear.
I must also disagree that period photographs do not provenance evidence. I believe good ones do. That's my contribution and Testament. Semper Fi.....Bobgee
Edited by bobgee, 02 September 2014 - 06:48 AM.
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#59
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 02:18 PM
Gary,
Can you post a closeup photo of the stabilizing pin at a different angle? I've looked at the hallmark plaques on my emblem under a magnifying glass, and they are identical to your fake "8th & I" emblem. I can't tell by your photo, but the pin looks identical also.
S/F,
Chuck
Can you post a closeup photo of the stabilizing pin at a different angle? I've looked at the hallmark plaques on my emblem under a magnifying glass, and they are identical to your fake "8th & I" emblem. I can't tell by your photo, but the pin looks identical also.
S/F,
Chuck
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:22 AM.
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#60
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 05:54 PM
Chuck,
The "8th & I" emblem isn't in my collection. I believe it IS or WAS owned by Darrell (Teufelhunde.ret), but don't know if he still has it in his possession. This was one of the emblems that was discussed by many of us here and determined to be an outright reproduction. Darrell is a real pro at close up photography, so I'm sure he'll post more photos of pins, hallmarks, etc for you.
EDIT NOTE: Chuck, I think I found the right thread in the Ref. Section "Holding Pen!" Some very interesting reading in this thread and I believe the Gaunt hallmark begins on Page 2.
http://www.usmilitar...?showtopic=5101
s/f,
Gary
The "8th & I" emblem isn't in my collection. I believe it IS or WAS owned by Darrell (Teufelhunde.ret), but don't know if he still has it in his possession. This was one of the emblems that was discussed by many of us here and determined to be an outright reproduction. Darrell is a real pro at close up photography, so I'm sure he'll post more photos of pins, hallmarks, etc for you.
EDIT NOTE: Chuck, I think I found the right thread in the Ref. Section "Holding Pen!" Some very interesting reading in this thread and I believe the Gaunt hallmark begins on Page 2.
http://www.usmilitar...?showtopic=5101
s/f,
Gary
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:22 AM.
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#61
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 06:15 PM
I believe that at JR Gaunt had factories in Canada (Calgary I believe) and New York starting in the 1930's. If you do searches on the internet, you can find some information about the hallmarks (in particular pertaining to their buttons) through the years. I will try to relocate that web site. The New York branch of JR Gaunt was in business until the 1960's. Recently (within the last decade) JR Gaunt was bought by the Firmin company.
Patrick
Patrick
#62
Bob Hudson
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 06:23 PM
I noticed Chuck's piece is no longer on ebay...
Here's the Gaunt mark from the fake piece shown on that forum link with Chuck's piece next to it:
Here's some Gaunt hallmarks from the website at http://www.wartimeco.../zhallmarks.htm
Here's the Gaunt mark from the fake piece shown on that forum link with Chuck's piece next to it:
Here's some Gaunt hallmarks from the website at http://www.wartimeco.../zhallmarks.htm
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:23 AM.
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#63
Bob Hudson
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 06:50 PM
It's basically been re-listed with title of "USMC EGA? WWII era Sweetheart pin? Reproduction?" and text now says:
Non-Regulation Emblem. Possible WWII era Sweetheart Pin. Possible Reproduction. This is currently being discussed on the US Militaria Forum. It is well made and looks good. Further information will be added to this auction. Bid accordingly. If anyone can provide additional information on this emblem please do so. Pete, please contact me through ebays message board.
Non-Regulation Emblem. Possible WWII era Sweetheart Pin. Possible Reproduction. This is currently being discussed on the US Militaria Forum. It is well made and looks good. Further information will be added to this auction. Bid accordingly. If anyone can provide additional information on this emblem please do so. Pete, please contact me through ebays message board.
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:24 AM.
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#64
Bob Hudson
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 07:38 PM
For a few minutes it did not come up: I wonder if that happens when you're in the revise mode?
I am hoping that some pieces of the puzzle fall into place, among them an good explanation of why there are apparently fake fantasy EGA's? To repeat what I said above, that is like counterfeiting three dollar bills - if you're going to go through all that work why not make a fake of something plausible? Plus, your piece and the other similar one shown above - whatever they are, they are not sweetheart pieces: I can just see the reaction if some Marine gave one of those to his gal with instructions on how to poke a big hole in her blouse to insert the back screw. Again, that is not something seen on civilian jewelry: the closest thing would be the lapel buttonhole that was on men's suits and badges and emblems designed for those do not need a removable back because of the way the buttonhole is cut.
I am hoping that some pieces of the puzzle fall into place, among them an good explanation of why there are apparently fake fantasy EGA's? To repeat what I said above, that is like counterfeiting three dollar bills - if you're going to go through all that work why not make a fake of something plausible? Plus, your piece and the other similar one shown above - whatever they are, they are not sweetheart pieces: I can just see the reaction if some Marine gave one of those to his gal with instructions on how to poke a big hole in her blouse to insert the back screw. Again, that is not something seen on civilian jewelry: the closest thing would be the lapel buttonhole that was on men's suits and badges and emblems designed for those do not need a removable back because of the way the buttonhole is cut.
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:24 AM.
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#65
C. Roelens
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Posted 20 November 2007 - 07:55 PM
Thanks Gary. I read the thread and agree that the raised Gaunt hallmarks are questionable. The information provided by all was very good in identifying some of the known fakes (reproductions) showing up now and then. All of the fakes shown are of some of the rarest Eagle, Globe, and Anchor's to be found. Therefore, that explains the motive ($$$$) for these greedy scumbags to reproduce.
I have never seen an example of my emblem being discussed as nothing more than a sweetheart pin. I have also seen all the variations of this emblem (sweetheart pin), except the one we are discussing. There is no known original regulation/non regulation emblem like this to exist. I ask again, why would some greedy scumbag take the time, and spend the money to reproduce a sweetheart pin with absolutley no monetary value?
S/F,
Chuck
I have never seen an example of my emblem being discussed as nothing more than a sweetheart pin. I have also seen all the variations of this emblem (sweetheart pin), except the one we are discussing. There is no known original regulation/non regulation emblem like this to exist. I ask again, why would some greedy scumbag take the time, and spend the money to reproduce a sweetheart pin with absolutley no monetary value?
S/F,
Chuck
Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 March 2008 - 09:25 AM.
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#66
C. Roelens
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Posted 21 November 2007 - 12:42 AM
I found a site on hallmarks by wartimecollectables... they also clearly state that all applied hallmarks are bogus. Based on the comments posted on this thread and that reference, I'm convinced applied hallmarks are bogus. To all who took the time to provide your expertise... Thank You.
Does that make this a Fantasy EGA?
S/F, and Happy Thanksgiving
Chuck
Does that make this a Fantasy EGA?
S/F, and Happy Thanksgiving
Chuck
#67
teufelhunde.ret
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Posted 25 November 2007 - 07:11 AM
This "thing" showed up on ebay this morning... butt ugly!!! Someone's attempt at fakery?
http://cgi.ebay.com/...I...A:IT&ih=012
http://cgi.ebay.com/...I...A:IT&ih=012
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#68
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Posted 27 December 2007 - 03:14 AM
OK folks ready for the grand debut, USNUSA has rolled out for our viewing pleasure another new design. Should be a hit in 08' 
http://cgi.ebay.com/...I...A:IT&ih=006
http://cgi.ebay.com/...I...A:IT&ih=006
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#69
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Posted 27 December 2007 - 05:26 AM
Looks like it has had its wing clipped. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif I do not like the gesture position of the bird, looks like it is frightened. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/pinch.gif This should be called the brokedik eagle. 
Steve
Steve
#70
Jeremiah
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Posted 27 December 2007 - 06:03 AM
Hmmm, the '08 model sucks. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif Looks like some sort of jacked up hybrid of two different types.
#71
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Posted 27 December 2007 - 06:41 AM
he even lists it as enlisted when there's a seperately attached rope....
I'll take 8!
I'll take 8!
#72
Brig
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Posted 20 January 2008 - 12:54 PM
this is being on eBay now as a repro, cast, luckily you can tell from the shoddy background. Just be alert out there. Item number 200192801198 and 200192800872
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Edited by Brig, 20 January 2008 - 12:54 PM.
#73
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Posted 29 January 2008 - 08:35 AM
370018122706
what do you guys think of this monstrous looking thing?
what do you guys think of this monstrous looking thing?
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#74
teufelhunde.ret
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Posted 29 January 2008 - 09:50 AM
It is horrible... he claims its sterling too. The real shame is you can get a Stokes/Bannerman restrike for not much more, if your not impetuous.
#75
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Posted 29 January 2008 - 12:45 PM
I hate to see known fakes being made with the fold-over and soldered prongs instead of the straight prongs. Until today, I thought maybe a person could still acquire a nice original piece for their collection with these folded over prongs, but guess not.
s/f, Gary
s/f, Gary
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