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33rd Armored Regiment Guidon


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#1 Jim Baker

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 12:58 PM

Hi All,

I just picked up this great field made guidon. It appears to be made from two signal flags. It's definitely old and been folded up for awhile.

33rd_Amored_Regiment_Guidon.JPG

#2 Jim Baker

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 01:01 PM

You can see here it's dirty and the fold creases. I am going to have this framed and was looking for suggestions in terms of clean/don't clean, removing the creases, framing ideas, etc....

All comments are welcome, and thanks in advance!

Applicades.JPG

#3 just-a-good-ole-boy

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:11 PM

Was this the one from the ebay seller in France? I almost bid on it.

#4 Jim Baker

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:42 PM

Yes, from Michel DeTrez of the Dead Man's Corner Museum.

#5 just-a-good-ole-boy

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 05:57 PM

Yes, from Michel DeTrez of the Dead Man's Corner Museum.



Very nice piece http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#6 The Meatcan

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 06:40 PM

that's pretty cool Jim! I'm not sure I'd attempt a cleaning (it doesn't look bad at all in the photos) but using some light steam to ease the wrinkles seems like a good idea before framing. Make sure you show us some photos after you have finished. Neat item http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#7 FightenIrish35

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 06:42 PM

man thats a pretty neat find..ive never seen one before...i agree from the pics it doesnt look to bad actually gives it a nice "been there"look.

#8 Jeeper704

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:56 AM

Glad to see you got it, amigo. http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

I wouldn't clean it too much or leave it like it is.
Just display it nicely in a frame with a small label underneath or maybe a 3AD patch.

Very nice item! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/drool2.gif

Erwin

#9 Johan Willaert

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:09 AM

I know the original owner who sold his collection to MDT a couple of weeks ago very well.
Next time I see him I will ask some more details on the originin of the guidon...

Wonder who bought the 3AD Captain's helmet...

#10 Laury Allison

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:38 AM

Hi All,

I just picked up this great field made guidon. It appears to be made from two signal flags. It's definitely old and been folded up for awhile.

33rd_Amored_Regiment_Guidon.JPG


Jim,

That would look so sweet with an Armor green matting and cut-outs with the 33rd Armored unit crests and the 3rd Armored Division patch. Set it off with an officers Armored BOS device in the center or even the officer's BOS on one side and the enlisted one on the opposite side if you wanted to put a little engraved plaque in the middle.

As far as cleaning it...the suggestions about the steam would be good. If it is stained or soiled, talk to a dry cleaner in you area that you are comfortable with about the options available....then cross your fingers. Looks like a nice find!

Laury

#11 Laury Allison

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:49 AM

As an after-thought...it would be super sweet to include a EAME Campaign Medal and a WWII Victory Medal to the mix...balancing them on either side. That would be an awesome grouping!!!!

Laury

#12 Jim Baker

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 09:08 AM

Thanks guys for the comments and so many great ideas!

I can see I'm going to have to give this some serious thought. I will deifinitely add a small plaque, I just have to figure out what to put on it. I don't want to go overkill. I like the DUI idea too. I have always liked that DUI (Men of War). It might look cool attached to one side of the little plaque.

Johan,

Any info from the original owner would be most welcome and appreciated. Thank you!! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#13 just-a-good-ole-boy

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:37 PM

I know the original owner who sold his collection to MDT a couple of weeks ago very well.
Next time I see him I will ask some more details on the originin of the guidon...

Wonder who bought the 3AD Captain's helmet...


That would be me http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#14 Johan Willaert

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:46 PM

That would be me http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif


Thanks for letting us know... That nis one awesome helmet. I looked it over a couple of years ago...

#15 General Apathy

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:52 PM

Hi Jim, nice guidon, appears that everyone likes it and will make a good wall mount, personally I wouldn't overdo the cleaning and pressing, I would leave some of it in there, the folds show it spent it's later life packed away, maybe in someones footlocker ?? http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

Regards ( Lewis )

#16 just-a-good-ole-boy

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 02:45 PM

Thanks for letting us know... That nis one awesome helmet. I looked it over a couple of years ago...


Thanks Johan! I hope to have it in my hands by Monday http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/nerv0003.gif I cant wait to see it up close!!!

#17 Jim Baker

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 10:43 PM

Thanks Johan! I hope to have it in my hands by Monday http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/nerv0003.gif I cant wait to see it up close!!!


Nice snag on the helmet. He delivers very quickly.

#18 tredhed2

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:07 PM

Have declined to comment until I could get some research completed.

I believe a case to be made that this is for the 33rd Tank Bn, and not the Regiment, based upon the following:

Constituted 13 January 1941 in the Regular Army as the 3d Armored Regiment and assigned to the 3d Armored Division

Activated 15 April 1941 at Camp Beauregard, Louisiana

Redesignated 8 May 1941 as the 33d Armored Regiment

Inactivated 10 November 1945 in Germany

Regiment broken up 7 July 1947 and its elements redesignated as follows:

Regimental Headquarters and Headquarters Company, Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, and Companies A, D, E, and F as the 33d Tank Battalion, and remained assigned to the 3d Armored Division....remainder of units disbanded.

After 7 July 1947 the above units underwent changes as follows:

7th and 33d Tank Battalions activated 15 July 1947 at Fort Knox, Kentucky Reorganized and redesignated 30 July 1948 as the 7th and 33d Medium Tank Battalions, respectively Reorganized and redesignated 15 March 1955 as the 7th and 33d Tank Battalions, respectively 7th and 33d (less Company D) Tank Battalions inactivated 1 October 1957 in Germany and relieved from assignment to the 3d Armored Division....

There are two time periods during which the Mark VIII tank insignia applied:

1) From Feb 1942, when the insignia was authorized for Armored Forces (per TIOH), until Nov 1945, when 33rd AR was inactivated.

2) From July 1947, when 33rd Tank Bn. was activated, until 1952 when the new Armor branch insignia (M-26 Tank over crossed sabers) was approved.

Based upon the info that it appears the "guidon" was made from two signal flags, I concur. I believe that the code markings are consistent with those on post-WW II signal flags, but I am not an expert on these flags. Additionally, it appears the guidon background had the insignia sewn on upside down; signal flags had one end sewn shut (which went over the top of the small pole) and the strings were used to secure the bottom of the flag to the pole. Furthermore, the dimensions of this one differ significantly from that of guidon standards (I have three - two regulation and one occupation-made). Due to this size differential, it may not even be a unit guidon, but a souvenir memory for an officer or NCO.

#19 Jim Baker

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:53 AM

Hi Dave,

After looking through Sawicki's and Stanton's books, it was also my thought the guidon/flag was for the 33rd TB. The seller insisted it was made in the field for the 33rd AR.

The guidon/flag is old, and made of heavy canvas like material. I'm good with it either way and am curious what Johan can find out from the collector who owned it prior to Michel.

BTW, it is open at both ends and may have flown below another flag. Whatever it's original purpose, I believe the flag was used due to the (very) minor fray at the end of the fork. Based on the wear, I don't believe it was a souvenir. What would be nice is a period photo!

Edited by Jim Baker, 01 December 2008 - 10:56 AM.


#20 Vneal487

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:52 AM

Armor was assigned the colors green and white by circular 49 on 21 February 1947. When the Cavalry branch was abolished, the present Armor was assigned the former Cavalry color yellow by SR 600-60-1 dated 26 October 1951.

So this Guidon is from Feb 1947 to Oct 1951. It very well could have been field made for the Korean War. The Korean War started in June 1950.

#21 Indexred

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 05:20 AM

The colors arent the issue with the guidon in question. Armored Force units used green and white during WWII. Those colors appeared on guidons, EM cap piping, distinctive insignia, etc.

#22 nirvana

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:30 PM

Its WW2 coloring. Theres really not much of a debate on that point. Ive got a WW2 armor guidon with provenance, Ive seen others, period photos show it as well.

Edited by nirvana, 11 February 2019 - 07:31 PM.


#23 I Hate Moths

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 02:52 PM

I thought i would ad this one to the discussion. This 33rd armored regiment guidon was found in the home of Captain Thomas W Morrison. He was  B company commander until wounded on November 18, 1944.

 

33rd regiment guiden.jpg  

 

33rd guidon tag(1).jpg 33-b guidon in use.jpg



#24 nirvana

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 05:34 PM

Damn thats a nice guidon and pic.

#25 Mr.Jerry

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Posted 11 June 2019 - 03:52 AM

Very nice flags!  I used to have a 33rd, but in a moment of weakness sold it to a friend from Chicago, after his passing I have always wondered where that might have ended up. :(




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