Jump to content


Photo

Black Tip MKII Grenade Spoon


  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#1 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 12 February 2017 - 09:34 AM

Found a pic that shows the end of the spoon with a black tip..Lots of collectors believe this indicates a re used spoon from training...some feel it indicated a modified fuze.  I believe it means modified..anyway here is a cool pic that shows what looks to be a black painted spoon.   Would love to hear reason's why collectors think it means its a used spoon  

2007.048.518_1.590x590.marked.jpg



#2 Persian Gulf Command

Persian Gulf Command
  • Members
    • Member ID: 17,994
  • 1,029 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 February 2017 - 10:19 AM

Sorry for "Duplicating" by enlarging the photo but I noticed the yellow band so the body would appear to not be a blue painted.  If this is the case it may indicate its "live" ordnance.  Is there any way that this photo could be dated (Pre or Post 1945)?

Attached Images

  • post-2677-0-70070100-1486920838.jpg


#3 lambo35

lambo35
  • Members
    • Member ID: 31,437
  • 340 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Spearfish, SD.

Posted 12 February 2017 - 01:34 PM

The early barrel band and rear sight on the Carbine could indicate pre-1945.

 

Chuck



#4 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 12 February 2017 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for enlarging the photo...will look for the info on pic.



#5 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 12 February 2017 - 10:52 PM

Here is the low down on the above pic.

 

 “27 Nov 44. 5/MM-44-30638. Fifth Army, Italy. 2nd Lt. Carmen C. Marra, 41 Highland Ave., Pittsfield, Mass. [Massachusetts], (right), and S/Sgt. Dock C. Lin, 13 Bayard St., N.Y., N.Y. [New York, New York], (Left) look over the weapons Lt. Marra used to force the surrender of a German armed with a machine pistol. Both are with the 135th Infantry Regiment, 34th Division. Photo by Tacey. 3131 Signal Service Co.” Italy. 27 November 1944

 

So...Black tip spoons were used in combat.. 



#6 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 14 February 2017 - 06:26 PM

Will add this pic to the thread..

grenadestencil (1).jpg



#7 Newscotlander

Newscotlander
  • Members
    • Member ID: 61,682
  • 65 posts

Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:17 PM

Interesting about the grenade, but don't know much about it. I enjoy looking at old pictures like this.

 

I can say that there is a high probability that the carbine was made by IBM or Standard Products.


Edited by Newscotlander, 16 February 2017 - 02:23 PM.


#8 gwb123

gwb123

    ADMINISTRATOR

  • Administrators
    • Member ID: 1,506
  • 17,457 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Omaha, Land of the Free

Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:00 PM

Thank you for the pages from the manual.

 

Now what exactly, in a WWII context, is a "modified grenade"?

Does the manual give any further explanation?



#9 Newscotlander

Newscotlander
  • Members
    • Member ID: 61,682
  • 65 posts

Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:47 PM

I can't insert a link. Search 90th IDPG projects, MKII Pineapple Grenade Restoration. I suspect it has to do with a change in the length of the fuse.



#10 gwb123

gwb123

    ADMINISTRATOR

  • Administrators
    • Member ID: 1,506
  • 17,457 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Omaha, Land of the Free

Posted 16 February 2017 - 04:51 PM

Here's the link.

 

https://search.yahoo...a&hsimp=yhs-002

 

That makes sense... if they modified the time that the fuze burned, that would be important to know!  Interesting.



#11 Newscotlander

Newscotlander
  • Members
    • Member ID: 61,682
  • 65 posts

Posted 16 February 2017 - 05:15 PM

I did a little more reading and research. It is a modification from the M10A1 fuse to the M10A3 fuse. According to "The Hand Grenade" by Gordon L. Rottman, "All fuses were 4-5 second delay except the M6A4C (4 seconds) and the M10A3 (4.3-5.5 seconds).



#12 EODsmity

EODsmity
  • Members
    • Member ID: 162,205
  • 141 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 February 2017 - 11:50 AM

M10A1 had flaw. Some times the flame bypassed the delay element causing the grenade to detonate early. Not good! LOL! The A2 fixed this by adding two compressed disks of Black Powder. The A3 was the same, but diffrent (longer) delay. There were many changes with MKII during its run. Diffrent fillers, fuzes, and markings. Not sure what mod got the paint. But it was done at the Ammo Depot. If you look in the picture, you see the guy putting a lead seal on the crate latch. The tool he is using mashed the seal on the wire threaded through it and left an Ordnance symbol (flaming piss pot) on the seal to show if it was tampered with after it left the Depot.

Smitty

#13 917601

917601
  • Members
    • Member ID: 180,924
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 15 October 2018 - 03:28 PM

Later MK2s used TNT as the explosive filler. Prior to 1944, they were filled with EC blank powder. TNT fuzes needed " detonator" fuzes, EC blank powder filled grenades needed only an " ignition" fuze. ( as did smoke and incendiary grenades). Modification of the older fuzes meant fixing the early ignition problem and timing spec. Millions of M200, M10A1/2 were " modified" to M10A3 spec EC blank powder ignition. Later TNT filled grenades could only use the M6 " detonator" fuze. I will add, a grenade collector in France who digs up battle sites ( he has about 1,000 samples) has stated he finds many dug grenades with an M200 marked fuze, some with A3 overstamp ink markings, all with black painted spoons. Ink does not do well in the ground.

Edited by 917601, 15 October 2018 - 03:35 PM.


#14 ccyooper

ccyooper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,641
  • 1,238 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 16 October 2018 - 08:25 AM

Thank you for the additional information and clarification.  I guess I need to find ORD 11 SNL 4 on grenade fuzes.  It makes sense, so until I can find substantiating documentation in a TB or SAAM, etc., I could not find anything in my OPM manuals, is it safe to assume in the interim that if a M200 spoon is not stamped with M10A3 and painted black as above it is not correct for a MK2 grenade?  I ask because many grenades for sale have substituted the M200 for a what I would consider a correct M10 Or M6 fuze and they do not have the aforementioned characteristics.  Regards,



#15 917601

917601
  • Members
    • Member ID: 180,924
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 16 October 2018 - 11:33 AM

Thank you for the additional information and clarification.  I guess I need to find ORD 11 SNL 4 on grenade fuzes.  It makes sense, so until I can find substantiating documentation in a TB or SAAM, etc., I could not find anything in my OPM manuals, is it safe to assume in the interim that if a M200 spoon is not stamped with M10A3 and painted black as above it is not correct for a MK2 grenade?  I ask because many grenades for sale have substituted the M200 for a what I would consider a correct M10 Or M6 fuze and they do not have the aforementioned characteristics.  Regards,


Good question. What we do know is an M200A1/2 smoke, incendiary spoon is bent squarely in two spots. If not inked over with M10 and bottom spoon handle not painted black, AND it looks to be straightened out and re- curved, it is probably a smoke incendiary fuze. Also, I received an M200 spoon a few days ago without the inking and black painted spoon....no rebent marks, it looked painted over, I took a chance and used acetone and rag to remove the paint, underneath the paint was a black painted spoon, and it probably had an ink overstamp but the acetone took the ink off. What I do know is a M200A1/2 black painted handle and ink marked overstamp is a period correct fuze assy. There are just to many examples found out there- keep in mind WW2 smoke and incendiary grenades are rarer than the MK2 and to think their spoons were removed and rebent for a " common" Mk2 is a wrong assumption. The collector in France who has piles of M200 dug fuzes and parts can not understand the controversy...it is obvious the controversy began here when folks started pulling up TMs, pubs, etc and finding reference they were for smoke and incendiaries, not mentioning they were modified to M10A3s by the millions.

#16 ccyooper

ccyooper
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,641
  • 1,238 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 16 October 2018 - 12:27 PM

That is what I would like to find.  The document that calls for their modification.  Since training grenades used black powder do you think maybe that also attributes to finding the spoons in great number since they were an ignition fuze?



#17 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 18 October 2018 - 07:28 AM

Here are some pics of spoons...some M200 that have been stamped M10A3

P8300065.jpg



#18 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 18 October 2018 - 07:31 AM

More spoons..all spoons with Black tips are M10A3 spoons or M10A1 over striked to M10A3

spoonassort1.JPG

spoonassort2.JPG  



#19 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 18 October 2018 - 07:37 AM

Good pics of the M10A1 overstamps to M10A3 painted OD with Black tip.

frag spoons 001.jpg

frag spoons 002.jpg



#20 Dirt Detective

Dirt Detective
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,677
  • 1,546 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:West Coast

Posted 18 October 2018 - 07:38 AM

...........

frag spoons 003.jpg



#21 917601

917601
  • Members
    • Member ID: 180,924
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 20 October 2018 - 05:12 PM

Loads of M200 overstamped in ink to M10A3, w/ black spoons indicating the mod.

Attached Images

  • image.jpeg


#22 917601

917601
  • Members
    • Member ID: 180,924
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 20 October 2018 - 05:13 PM

More.

Attached Images

  • image.jpeg


#23 917601

917601
  • Members
    • Member ID: 180,924
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 20 October 2018 - 05:17 PM

More...notice this has one that has turned up quite often, "MZ00". The Z stamped and presumably a " 2" which has been reported by a few collectors.

Attached Images

  • image.jpeg

Edited by 917601, 20 October 2018 - 05:19 PM.


#24 917601

917601
  • Members
    • Member ID: 180,924
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:05 PM

From BOCN, a fuze box, three M200A1 ink stamped modified M10 spoons in the bunch. Packed in 1943. More proof M200 engraved spoons modified and ink marked over to M10A3's is period correct, and the practice was wide spread. As more info keeps rolling in, I believe the bulk of M200 spoons were converted earlier in the war to M10/A3s due to the amount of them being found. On an interesting note, it seems the M10A3 fuze that has not been modified ( not an overstamped M10A1/2 to A3) is a rare bird, quite possibly because so many M200/ M10A2's were on hand and produced. If anyone can post a picture of an original manufactured M10A3 ( not an overstamp) it would add to the discussion. I believe there were few factory original M10/A3s because they switched from EC blank powder to TNT in late 1943, and the switch over to TNT required an M6 detonator fuze.

Attached Images

  • image.jpeg

Edited by 917601, 23 October 2018 - 12:12 PM.


#25 917601

917601
  • Members
    • Member ID: 180,924
  • 1,233 posts

Posted 23 October 2018 - 12:08 PM

Pic of a fuze box. It is becoming clear fuzes were modified, old fuze stocks used up, a lot of mix and match, overstamped, inked marked, painted, repainted, etc....no hard and fast rule.

Attached Images

  • image.jpeg
  • image.jpeg

Edited by 917601, 23 October 2018 - 12:19 PM.



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users