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#76 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:37 PM

Another 4th Division motorcycle & sidecar with someone by the name of "Lt. Greene" within the sidecar. The location & date of are unknown.

 

Photo courtesy of the Rogier Van de Hoeff collection

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  • 57 4th Division Motorcycle & Sidecar Insignia R.jpg


#77 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:48 PM

This one of a 4th Division Artillery park is pretty interesting. On the right hand side of the French 75mm gun shield is the insignia of the 4th Division. On the opposite side is a series of stars and chevrons whose purpose are unknown.

 

So far there are two theories as to what those symbols represent:

 

1. One thought is that they represent some sort of score or tally, i.e. stars for destroyed targets and chevrons for damaged targets.

2. Another is that the stars are "gold stars" representing members of that battery killed in action & the chevrons are a tally of "wound chevrons" earned by members of that battery.

 

Photo courtesy of the Rogier Van de Hoeff collection

 

Any thought as to what the stars & chevrons on the gun shield signify?

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  • 58 4th Division Gun Shield Insignia I.jpg


#78 world war I nerd

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Posted 12 December 2016 - 09:52 PM

Not sure if I'm seeing things, but it looks like there is some sort of insignia on the left hand side of the gun shield on the artillery piece directly behind the gun with the 4th Division insignia. It almost looks like a bird or some other winged creature hovering over a circular object?

 

Photo courtesy of the Rogier Van de Hoeff collection

 

Any thoughts?

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  • 59 4th Division Gun Shield Insignia II.jpg


#79 militariaone

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:38 AM

Greetings all,

 

While technically these (attached) 1st ID Vehicle Markings' Designs are dated Post Armistice, I thought they might be of interest. This 1st post is the first two pages of the memo, and the last page will be on my next post as it was too large to add.

 

V/r Lance

 

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  • a.jpg
  • b.jpg


#80 militariaone

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:40 AM

And the last page.

 

Njoy!

 

V/r Lance

 

 

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  • c.jpg


#81 jagjetta

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:08 AM

So here you go.  A croix de guerre plate from one of section 646 ambulances.  Section 646 was known as the "Croix de Guerre section" because of the number of times they were cited by the French Army. They received one at the regiment level, 2 at the division level and 2 at the army level.  I believe more than any other section in the USAAS.

 

Mark: 

That is about the COOLEST saved item from a an ambulance unit that I think I have ever seen!   Fascinating.  I didn't realize that the ambulance sections felt so highly about the CdG they received, or that they received multiples! Thank you for sharing this piece.

 

John



#82 world war I nerd

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:53 AM

Lance, thanks for adding the info regarding the 1st Division insignia. It's very interesting that the 1st also decided to use color coded backgrounds. I wonder if they did the same during the war or if that decision was inspired by what the 2nd Division had done.


Edited by world war I nerd, 13 December 2016 - 07:55 AM.


#83 jagjetta

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:25 AM

Thanks AEF1917 - McGeorge & Trenchbuff for the additional info & images ... keep em' coming. Trenchbuff can you post any photos of the tin plate emblems in use on AEF ambulances?

 

Steve, I think the soldier next to the FT 17 is from the 80th Division as that image was part of a series of post combat photos of the 80th Division after coming out of the Argonne. Yeah, it does kinda' look like a Kerr sling buckle.

 

Here's another heavy truck with an unidentified insignia that looks a lot (to me) like a profile of Abraham Lincoln. The soldier partially hidden by the inset appears to be wearing an Adrian helmet. Not sure if this is an AEF truck hauling French tanks or French trucks hauling French tanks, but It's hard to imagine the French Army using an image of Abraham Lincoln (if that's who it is) as a unit insignia. Can anybody ID this insignia?

 

Photo courtesy of the John Adams-Graf collection

 

 

The tank markings are a mysterious, but appealing, facet of the Tank Corps.  While it is true that Colonel Patton used playing card symbols as part of an identification system, the idea has been grossly over-inflated by collectors that have allowed a flood of erroneous information and out-right fake insignia to enter the hobby. Fake patches and painted helmets have seen the largest proliferation of supposed Tank Corps insignia.

 

Basically, in early September after the 1st Tank Brigade combat units, the 326th and 327th Tank Battalions, received some FT tanks, Colonel Patton directed that each tank be marked on the turret so that communication and unit integrity could be maintained on the battlefield.  He chose the four symbols of playing cards: hearts, spades, diamonds, and clubs. This denoted the PLATOON. Charles Lemons, former curator at the Patton Museum surmised that these were done in two different colors to denote 326th Battalion vehicles from 327th Battalion vehicles, but no documentation other than photo-interpretation has emerged to confirm that. Dale Wilson, author of "TREAT 'EM ROUGH" states that Patton indicated that the card symbols be painted in BLACK.

 

These symbols were stenciled on a white background shape, approximately 10" across: Square, circle and diamond. This shape denoted the COMPANY (A, B, and C, respectively).

 

A small number, 1-5, was painted in white to the side (photos make it appear inconsistent  as to which side) of the background shape. This denoted the vehicle within the PLATOON.  Furthermore, photographic evidence indicates that this was not universally applied. Photos show many FTs with just the card suit on the white background with NO number painted next to it (as seen on this photo of the destroyed FT 73345 made by Berliet)

Destroyed-FT17-DSC_0012-tri.jpg

 

This is a Signal Corps photo with a caption that identifies it as a "Company C" tank. It has the number 1 painted to the upper left of the symbol:

FT17-Co-Creduced.jpg

 

These symbols were hand-painted on the TURRETS of FTs prior to loading the tanks on flatcars on September 7, 1918, to proceed to the front.  FTs that have similar markings on the rear of the hull are French-operated vehicles. The US system called for markings on the TURRETS as another step for easy identification on the battlefield.  Patton basically adopted the French system for marking tanks which was prescribed in a circular  from General Headquarters of the Army of Northern and North-East/GQGArtillerie Assault No. 6841 dated June 29, 1918. The circular instructed: 

 

B) - Tanks:

In addition to its registration number, any battle tank carries two brands which one can distinguish the Battalion Group

or the Group or the Company or the tank and in the Group or the Company, battery or section of tank. The brand of the Group or Company is formed by a cartridge as defined below:

 

Group 1 or 1st Company - circle 25 cm in diameter.

Group 2 or 2nd Company - square 25 cm in diameter.

Group 3 or 3rd Company - Triangle 25 cm in diameter.

Group 4 or 4th Company - Diamond 25 cm in diameter.

 

The cartridges are painted in white on each side of the tank in half of the upper rear panel.

 

The brand of battery or Section consists of an Ace inscribed in a circle of 15 cm, painted black in the center of the cartridge after the rule below:

 

Battery 1 or Section 1 - Ace of Spades

Battery 2 or Section 2 - Ace of Hearts

Battery 3 or Section 3 - Ace of Diamonds

Reserve (Section d’echelon) - Ace of Clubs

 

French Renault FT units were organised in : Régiment - Bataillon - Compagnie - Section

 

The earliest PERIOD reference to vehicles being referred to as the "Five of Hearts" or the "Ace of Spades" comes only around 1927 in a speech. In Patton correspondence from 1940, reference is made to the “Five of Hearts” in an attempt to identify an FT at Fort Meade. In 1957, an old veteran visiting Fort Meade claimed to have “served in the Five of Hearts.”  The particular tank to which all of these sources referred was an FT, no. 1516 and it had a heart on a diamond background with the number 5 painted on the upper left side.

 I have found no period references that used playing card reference to a particular vehicle, nor any sort of unit adoption of the symbols as an insignia.  The important thing to understand is that a crew of two was NOT assigned to a particular tank.  In fact, during the Meuse-Argonne offensive, crews served in whatever tank was available, often serving in up to three vehicles per day. The two crew-members were considered a "team" but the vehicle they drove was parceled out as needed. So, a crew serving in the Five of Hearts one day might be serving in the 3 of Diamonds the next. 

 

These insignia remained on the 1st Brigade combat vehicles ( 326/327 Battalion through the St. Mihiel campaign and then, renumbered the 344/345th Battalions) through the Meuse Argonne up to the end of the war.  The symbols were NOT used by other battalions of other Brigades (light or heavy).

 

In his report on of Tank Corps activities with the 1st American Army at St. Mihiel and in the Argonne,  Brigadier General S.D. Rochebach, C.T.C.,  commented, “…The necessity for a distinctive guidon for Tank Corps units and trucks and a marker for the men was demonstrated and adopted.”

 

 

 

 

 

 



#84 jagjetta

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:29 AM

FT17-DSC_0008.jpg

 

An American-operated FT of B Company (white disc). The club insignia has been inferred to represent Headquarters, though the number 5 would be too high--Company HQ only had 2 tanks).  Still a mystery as to what the Club denotes. 

 

FT-17-on-train-car-a.jpg

 

Add to the Club mystery, an FT on a French rail car of C Company (white diamond background) with a CLUB symbol and the number 5.

 



#85 trenchbuff

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:46 AM

 

Mark: 

That is about the COOLEST saved item from a an ambulance unit that I think I have ever seen!   Fascinating.  I didn't realize that the ambulance sections felt so highly about the CdG they received, or that they received multiples! Thank you for sharing this piece.

 

John

 

John, It's one of my favorite pieces and part of a larger group I got from Dennis Jackson a couple years back.  Unfortunately Nerd, the only photos I have showing plates in use is the license style on the ambulance.

 

PS John, I love the tank markings and one of these days you'll break the code!
 


Edited by trenchbuff, 13 December 2016 - 08:47 AM.


#86 jagjetta

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:52 AM

FT-17-towing-tank-a.jpg

 

A variation on the theme seen in this photo of an FT pulling another one. The vehicle on the left is marked with a DIAMOND on a  white circle background (3rd platoon, B COMPANY) with the number "2" painted ABOVE the disc. It is pulling an FT that appears to be marked with a spade or club on a SQUARE background (Company A) with NO number painted next tot he symbol.

 

FT-17s-on-hill.jpg

A Hotchkiss-armed FT with a diamond in a diamond background (3rd Platoon COMPANY C), with the number "3" painted in the upper left. 

 

 

 



#87 jagjetta

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 08:55 AM

US-Tanks-at-St-Mihiel-DSC_0.jpg  US-Tanks-at-St-Mihiel-DSC1.jpg

 

And finally, a photo with a handwritten note indicating, "US Tanks on the eve of the attack on St. Mihiel" shows a variety of markings and total lack on some vehicles.  Most obvious is a Club on a Circle (HQ, Comany B ) with the number 4 painted next to it. 


Edited by jagjetta, 13 December 2016 - 08:56 AM.


#88 mrwocco

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:44 AM

Hello, in regards to Militariaone post #79, 1st Division markings.

 

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  • 1st Div Wagon 2.jpg


#89 mrwocco

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 09:45 AM

upclose

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#90 RustyCanteen

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 12:41 PM

Great thread WWI Nerd!

 

I will see if I can find anything to add, but it looks like you've done a magnificent job once again.

 

RC



#91 RustyCanteen

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 12:43 PM

attachicon.gifFT17-DSC_0008.jpg

 

An American-operated FT of B Company (white disc). The club insignia has been inferred to represent Headquarters, though the number 5 would be too high--Company HQ only had 2 tanks).  Still a mystery as to what the Club denotes. 


 

 

Hi JAG,

 

I was going to add this image too, but you've beat me to it. Was yours an RPPC, or an official print?

 

RC



#92 jagjetta

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 01:12 PM



 

Hi JAG,

 

I was going to add this image too, but you've beat me to it. Was yours an RPPC, or an official print?

 

RC

 

RC:

I have a series of tiny snapshots of this tank, though no provenance attached. It is one of my favorite shots of American-operated FTs.  I don't know, but I feel it was taken immediately after the Meause-Argonne action.  Following the St. Mihiel offensive during which many US-driven FTs ran out of fuel, Patton ordered that those drums of fuel be carried into action.  This proved to be a mistake for at least one tank whose commander said, he felt a great heat rising as he rode with his legs dangling through the turret back doors.  Apparently, hostile fire had punctured the drum and ignited the fuel!

 

Here are the others of the tank with the club insignia (NOT the one that caught fire!):

 

FT17-DSC_0003.jpg  FT17-DSC_0015.jpg

 FT17-DSC_0005red.jpg



#93 world war I nerd

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 06:14 PM

John, I was hoping that you'd add what you know, which is much more than the rest of us know about the insignia used on the AEF light tanks. I hope that other viewers appreciate your WW I Tank Corps acumen as much as I do. Thanks for adding the text & images to this thread ... Now what do you know about AEF heavy tank battalion markings?

 

MrWocco, I had a feeling you'd have something worthwhile to contribute and you didn't disappoint anybody with the great 1st Division image. That's the photo of a 1st Division marked vehicle that I've ever seen! Thanks for posting.



#94 cthomas

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Posted 13 December 2016 - 07:53 PM

Photo No. 20: An Air Service Cadillac touring car whose windshield bears an Air Service roundel and aviators wings.

Photo courtesy of the John Adams-Graf collection

The windshield shows a pair of aviator wings over the Third Army insignia. Maybe a staff car from the 3rd Army Air Service? Very cool all the same. After years of collecting aviation goods, I haven't seen this in pictures before. Nice!

By the way, I've found some Duseys for you. Stay tuned...

- Chuck
PS Those are DH.4s parked in the background of this image.

Edited by cthomas, 13 December 2016 - 07:56 PM.


#95 jagjetta

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 07:56 AM



John, I was hoping that you'd add what you know, which is much more than the rest of us know about the insignia used on the AEF light tanks. I hope that other viewers appreciate your WW I Tank Corps acumen as much as I do. Thanks for adding the text & images to this thread ... Now what do you know about AEF heavy tank battalion markings?

 

 

Heavy Tanks are even tougher to sort out!  As you and most know, the Heavy Tank Battalions were US units assigned to British formations.  The US provided the men, uniforms, and pay, but the British provided the command structure and the tanks. 

 

Only one battalion, the 301st, was used in combat, assigned to the 4th British Tank Brigade and then to the 1st Tank Brigade. The battalion did not receive any tanks for its own use until August 30, 1918, after it embarked from Southampton for Le Havre and finally arrived at Erin. In mid-September, the Batttalion learned it would be joining the British Fourth Army in an attempt to breach the Hindenburg Line. On September 19, the 301st learned it would be part of the British 4th Tank Brigade's, and in particular, would be supporting the the US 27th Infantry Division's attack.

 

On September 20-21, the Battalion loaded its 47 tanks, a mix of Mark Vs and Mark V*s  ("mark five-star"). By this point the 301st had had its tanks for a total of 21 days--3 weeks.

 

The 301st tanks were all previously British-operated tanks that had been redistributed to the Americans. Many came from the 10th and 14th British Tank Battalions.  As such, many of the US-driven tanks that went into action on September 29, still bore the markings of the their previous British operators. 

 

The basic markings on all Mark V and V*s were thus: 

 

Tank-9911-b.jpg

 

*The left and right horns (front of the each side of the tank) had three hand-painted stripes, each about 12" wide: White-Red-White (sorry, the above photo is post-Armistice and shows a 301st tank with just White-Red). The pattern was repeated on the top and back of the "cabs" on top of the tanks.  These were battlefield and air recognition markings, deemed necessary after the Germans fielded many captured Mark IV rhomboid tanks after the Battle of Cambrai.  AFTER the 301st returned to the US, this practice was modified to use the stripes in different combinations to denote a tank of a particular company.

 

*Census number (also known as registration number). The four-digit number  was  painted in white on the rear of each hull side above the ventilator grille.

 

That's it for markings.  SOME tanks, however, bore "personalized" markings, the most obvious were the tanks reassigned from the 10th British Tank Battalion. These were marked with a large, white, hand-painted vehicle number preceded by the letter "J" (designating the 10th Company.). So far, I know that the 301st operated tanks that were marked with J4, J7, J19, J21, J22, and J41.

 

301st.jpg

 

Other tanks, transferred to the 301st from the 14th British Tank Battalion, bore the number and name combinations: "N8 Neptune," "N11 Natal, " and N02 Newmarket." Other recorded markings I have of 301st-operated tanks include "BISON III", "Baby Doll" (probably painted post-Armistice), "H01," and "I.2." 

 

One soldier wrote home that their tank was named the "ANGLIN" (no 9111) in honor of an English girlfriend. He didn't say, however, if they painted the name on the tank, but rather, simply said they named their tank after the girl. 

 

DSC_0028.jpg

 

The most unusual, however, appears in the history of Company A, 301st Tank Battalion: No 9604 has a large yin-yang symbol painted on both horns.  Groups of  Company A tankers posed for their portraits in front of this tank, and yet, I can't find record that any group 301st tankers actually drove this tank!  It was likely a 301st Tank, however, because it ended up in the United States after the war.  An important aside: All marking conventions identified pre-armistice are out the door in the post November 11 world. The 301st, when it returned to the United States with its tanks, now knew they were "THEIR" tanks. Therefore, new marking conventions were established to identify tanks within the battalion.

 

As important as "crews not tanks" is when considering the Light Tank Battalion, it is even more prevalent in the Heavy Battalions.  The tanks were simply regarded as tools, and assigned as needed.  They were crewed as assigned.  SO, a particular crew did not necessarily drive the same tank, day after day. This becomes obvious as the assault on the Hindenburg line continued. By November 4, the 301st was down to just a handful of operable tanks. Commanders were selected for that day's assault and their crews then climbed into one of the operable tanks. It didn't matter if they had fought in a different tank the day before.  Commanders were selected for the specific operation, and then those commanders selected which tank they wanted to take into action. 

 

 

Treat 'em rough!

John


Edited by jagjetta, 14 December 2016 - 07:58 AM.


#96 jagjetta

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 08:38 AM

So, as is the case when discussing so much WWI insignia, having firmly concluded that there was no 301st-specific markings prior to November 11, 1918, I present to a photo that appeared in Company A's history which identifies it as "Lt. Gutkowski's tank" after hitting a mine.

 

Gutowski's-Knocked-out-tank.jpg  

Lt. Gutkowski was in Company A. According to the Battlegraph (a typical British method of recording tanks' progress during a battle), Gutkowski commanded Mark V* no. 9893 and hit a mine before even reaching the starting line of the operation. 

 

Gutowski's-Knocked-oT.jpg

The photograph, which shows some mines as well as the sprung tread, also shows the horn with the white-red-white stripes BUT also with the added name "AGONY" (In British tradition, tanks were named with words beginning with the letter of the company, in this case, Company A) above a white square.  

 

Could Gutowksi have had this tank named and painted?  WHat does the white square denote? Is it a tactical symbol.

 

Never a clear answer with these markings!

 

John



#97 cthomas

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 09:36 AM

The insignia of the 18th Artillery Rgt., 3rd Division. Note the light colored square at bottom right of the insignia field. I believe that's a washed-out 3rd Division 'crest'. 

 

This humorous scene was taken during the Occupation. I once had saved an RPPC scan which showed a 3rd Army variation incorporating this insignia...unfortunately, I can't find that file right now. Bummer... 

 

-Chuck

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#98 cthomas

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:02 AM

I believe this unusual insignia belonged to the 161st Aero Squadron. There is yet another variation on the building wall...can you see it?

 

The rub comes with the caption on back. It was signed by a soldier from the 474th Aero Squadron...and censored by an officer from the 474th as well. There is no known insignia for the 474th AS...

 

It is my humble opinion the caption's author was working side-by-side with the 161st AS, and had this opportunity to be in the picture.  

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  • 161st Aero Squadron(Park).jpg


#99 jagjetta

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 10:35 AM

I believe this unusual insignia belonged to the 161st Aero Squadron. There is yet another variation on the building wall...can you see it?

 

The rub comes with the caption on back. It was signed by a soldier from the 474th Aero Squadron...and censored by an officer from the 474th as well. There is no known insignia for the 474th AS...

 

It is my humble opinion the caption's author was working side-by-side with the 161st AS, and had this opportunity to be in the picture.  

Oh man, Chuck, that is TOO cool!  Would that same insignia appear on the 161st's airplane fuselages, as well? 

 

Nerd has tapped into a great vein of information to be mined. Glad you, Rogier, and others are jumping in.  The bit on the 1st Division insignia was fantastic!  Years ago, I tried to pin down the use of the insignia on vehicles and actually seeing the orders for it now--all I can say is, "WOW."

 

John



#100 world war I nerd

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 11:11 AM

Wow, Chuck, a couple of killer additions! This one doesn't compare to the "Bozo" of the 161st Aero Squadron, but here's a 26th Division wagon with the insignia of the 101st Engineer Regiment painted on its canvas cover. The inset is the 26th Division, 101st Engineer Regiment insignia as painted on a steel helmet. Photo courtesy of Great War Images

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