Bizarre Veterans’ Accounts

[giconceptsjw]

God bless all the veterans, you gotta love ‘em. My dad and 5 uncles were all WWII veterans and I have never grown tired of listening to their tales of military service. I’ve been involved with military collecting, re-enacting, associations & reunion organizations, coordinating & casting for films & TV, etc. for over 25 years. So, I’ve had a lot of great opportunities to meet and talk to a lot of veterans. With that said, they don’t always make sense in what they say but obviously it’s only due to their human imperfection and memory loss. The truth is, veteran’s accounts aren’t always the gospel and sometimes you have to take it with a grain of salt. Here are a few veterans’ comments that left me scratching my head.

 

“We never used folding stock carbines, no one in the 505 ever had any of those.” (A WWII 82nd Airborne veteran.)

 

“Here is the canteen I carried from Normandy to Germany.” (A 1st Infantry Division veteran holding a modern green plastic canteen & M56 cover dated 1968.)

 

“Yes, this is the gear I used in Vietnam back in 67.” (A Vietnam veteran talking about a set of nylon ALICE gear all dated late 1970’s & early 80’s.)

 

“I was there (the 1968 Tet Offensive) and we used whatever we could find. This is exactly what we used.” (Dale Dye talking about post 1975 nylon USMC first aid kits.)

 

“No Marines ever wore army buckle boots, ever.” (A Korean war USMC veteran while looking at a book showing Marines wearing army buckle boots in 1950.)

 

“That helmet cover is wrong, we never had those. I was there, so I know. You weren’t even there.” (Technical Advisor & Vietnam era USMC veteran Mike Stokey referring to a WWII camouflage pattern USMC helmet cover being used for the battle of Hue. (plenty of photos prove in fact they were used.)

 

“If you’re going to carry grenades, put the handle through the button hole of your shirt. That’s the only way Americans carried hand grenades during WWII.” (WWII USMC veteran consultant on the set of the TV series “Suicide Missions”)

 

“This is the actual helmet I wore on D-Day.” (E-bay listing description posted by a WWII veteran selling a 1960’s – 1980’s era rear seam, swivel bail helmet. After the auction ended, another helmet was listed with the same description, “This is the actual helmet I wore on D-Day.”)

 

“All of the equipment in this box is what I was issued and used during the war. It’s a time capsule.” (WWII veteran selling a cardboard box full of some WWII items mixed with modern Coleman camping gear, fishing tackle & Home Depot painting supplies.

[kjones5452]

I know exactly what you mean,I had 5 uncles all spread around the globe.

Quite a few things just don't wash and some of it,as was pointed out,

is very basic. One thing though that they all came together on and was

the fact that none of em ever saw a swivel bail helmet, they thought that

was something that came out when Korea started up.

[gwb123]

Hopefully when these stories were told you did not undertake to correct such memories! LOL

 

I had a very nasty experience with a well known militairia dealer and East Coast show promoter when I suggested one of the patches in his display case was possibly a reproduction.

 

He stepped out into the middle of the aisle and threatened to beat me within an inch of my life. Basically he said something like "What the hell do you know, I was at Kontum!"

 

That was of course the epic battle of 1972 in Vietnam.

 

http://www.thebattleofkontum.com/namrevisit.html

 

Until I had a chance to look it up, I thought he was referring to Khartoum (1884 to 1885), so I was very confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Khartoum

 

This guy totally lost it, which I thought was foolish on his part considering all the weaponry that was within reach. I turned my back, waived my hand like it was nothing and walked away from him.

 

I wondered for a long time what exactly I had done to warrant such a response, till I later found out he had reputation for such fits.

 

Needless to say, I keep my opinions a bit closer to myself especially with a vet who is convinced he is right. Most vets can be forgiven as presumably they were a bit distracted at the time by more pressing things, such as fighting the war and such.

[willysmb44]

I think this thread will quickly fill with similar trips down Alzheimer’s Lane. Vets don’t recall every left-handed widget that carried but it is funny what they do recall. People always say go with what the vets tell you. If that were so, I’d have an M-14, M-20 bazooka and a lot of postwar stuff in my displays and collection!

I can’t help but wonder if years from now, someone will ask me what pattern of LBV or model of K-pot I wore. I’m sure I won’t be able to tell him, even though I have it all stuffed in my old ruck in the toy room closet.

• Once, at a display of AAF stuff my group did at a 8th AF reunion in the mid 90s, we had every kind of parachute issued to the AAF and RAF during the entire war. Several vets who flew B-17s came up and said, “They don’t have the chute I wore,” leading us to wonder if maybe they flew for the Luftwaffe after all. It was really tough to choke those down, considering all the time, expense and trouble we’d all gone through to have a totally complete parachute harness display.
  
• Another time, I had a layout of most (but granted, not all) WW2 small arms used in the ETO. Vets would come up and it was odd how so many of them only used the few unusual weapons I didn’t have. Nobody seemed to have ever used an M-1 rifle. So as an experiment, I put my carbine and M-1 rifle out of sight and waited. Sure enough, the VERY NEXT vet came up, looked at what I had, and then said he carried an M-1 when none before him had. I pulled it out, and he looked disappointed, and immediately said, “Well, I really never used it very often (right after saying it was his primary weapon in the war) as I picked up a BAR early on and carried one of those…” Naturally, I didn’t have a BAR. You can’t tell me that vets don’t enjoy telling people their collection is incomplete. I proved it that day.
  
• Along those lines, I once had a vet come up to display and look at a M-1 rifle and declared, “Nobody ever carried one of those in my unit” which was the 1st Infantry Division. Another vet came over and told him, “What are you, mental? We had MILLIONS of these in the war!” The rest of us just turned our back and choked back the giggles.
  
• Ask anyone who has had their WW2 Jeep out in the public. All the time, people come up to my 1944 Willys and say they drove one for the Army well into the 80s, which isn’t correct at all, that’s an M-151, a totally different vehicle.
  
• The “$50 Jeep in a crate”. ‘Nuff said.
  
• An AAF veteran I once knew SWORE that he once guarded a flight line of jet fighters in the US in 1939. The family believed it and would accept no evidence to the contrary.
  
• B-29s were flown off aircraft carriers. I’ve heard this more than once and I can’t figure out how this fish story even got started.
  
• I can’t count the number of veterans who think they used the 3.5 inch M-20 bazooka. But that weapon didn’t exist until long after the war. I guess they remember them from all the war movies that have used the wrong model?
  
• A USMC vet I used to live next door told me he once called in an air strike with flying wing bombers… in Viet Nam. The guy was adamant. I heard someone from Boeing once showed him documentation that the B-49s were long scrapped before then and the B-2 was years away. He replied, “They must have kept a few around that weren’t in your book because I watched them come in and bomb.”
  
• Airborne vet walks up to a display with a nice T-5 assembly on a mannequin. I’ll never forget those magic words, “What the heck is that thing?” I’d like to think his mind was going, but you just never know…
  
• From a WW2 US vet: “I personally shot Adolf Hitler as he was leaving the bunker at Normandy. He was coming out and I was standing there, plugged him between the eyes. The guy you saw in newsreel afterwards, he was a imposter.” NO, I’m not kidding and neither was he. The guy was dead serious. There was a long, long pause from everyone around after he said that…
  

[ColBob506]

I have only one exception to take with any of these statements,that would be Mutts and Jeeps.I can't speak for anything but what I know,and that is Ft. Lewis in the early 80's (up until May 84), I drove 151's ( Mutts) alot and know them well! Ft. Lewis' TMP had a large number of anachronistc vehicles including several 39 ford sedan's at least one Packard and about a score of CJ 2's,they also had a handful of WW2 Willy's jeeps,I drove one once as the CQ driver for the I corps OD,He was a big time WW2 collector and had me drive him out into the boonies to have fun and to compare it's handling to the Mutt.I remember clearly it had a metal nut cover on the steering wheel shaft with Willys embossed on it as opposed to the CJ 2's which had a rubber horn button with the script Willys in the same place.I know sometimes vets mix some facts up,that does not necessitate their being unreliable.On the whole I'll believe alot of what they say.Oh, and by the way,Ft. Lewis' Log Center had some WW2 jeeps for sale,none were the mythical 'jeep in a crate' but in various states of useable,parts vehicle ones did go for 50 bucks and servicible running one's were $125, $175 with trailer and Mutts were $75 dollar rebuilts.That I know because a buddy bought one and drove it home when he ETS'd,I chickened out because I couldn't justify that kinda expenditure having bought a 65 Mustang convertable for the same $75 pricetag!

Sparrow

[sigsaye]

I think quite often, it is more about what was important to them at the time and what they noticed. I spent almost 30 years in the Navy. I never realy "registered" the fact that during that time, crows went from real silver bullion to synthetic, and that the eagle actually changed shape. Just wasn't important at the time. I remember one time when I was aboard an amphibious ship, looking at a bunch of Marines leaning against the rail. I was above them on the next deck up and noticed that they almost all had the same pattern of cammoflage (wood land) on their backs. Did'nt accour that it was pretty much chance that that happened. Same ship we found a whole pile of cammie uniforms that had been dumped from the Marine stores into the well deck for disposal. We grabbed them up to wear when we painted the ship out. I gave one to a friends kid, and it turns out they wer the old pattern used in VN. Who knew?

 

My uncle served 20 years in the Navy and was a cook. He was at Pearl Harbor and was a Chief by 1943. Beyond that, his career was pretty flat, normal duty stations, and stateside shore duty for the KW. His career took off and got much more exciting after he retired though. He gave me some of his uniforms and said they were his from the war. Well, they were '50s, but it made him feel good to be some one.

 

But when you get a bunch of them together, they have no mercy for that sort of thing. I owned a restaurant for a while and had it decorated with stuff from my and my fathers Navy careers (flags, medals, patches and such). We eventually became a sort of "Fleet Reserve Associan" with old Sailors and Marines hanging out. Of the Sailors, were my Uncle (39-60), Father (47-67), a guy who enlisted in '39 and was a Warrant Bosun at the end of the War, an ex SM1 who rode Tin Cans across the Atlantic from 42-45, and a fellow who was a Coxwain on the Houston when she went down in 42 and spent the rest of the war as a guest of the Japanese Empire, helping out with Rail Roads and bridges so to speak. These guys would not tollerate "filling in the blanks". My Dad and Uncle were on the same ship in China, so would keep each other straight. When you get them "Coffeed Up" and they are there to keep each other straight, they are a welth of info. But I agree with Jeff, Verify. And, something too, most guys know what is going on in ther unit. They know what they had (sort of). Often the big picture was missed by them since they only really cared about getting through the day.

 

Steve Hesson

[DwightPruitt]

Often the big picture was missed by them since they only really cared about getting through the day.

Bingo.

[market garden]

Bingo.

I agree detail was not of importance. I have several friends who were in WW2/Korea they could tear down the garand and carbine pretty fast even with

 

authritise in there hands. Market garden

[sigsaye]

Interestingly, I had a pile of uniforms that I had brought in for the boys to check out. I got busy as they were looking. When they finished, they had them perfectly folded and were wanting to know where the close stops were. Later that day I found them in the parking lot with a heaving line I had made tossing it across the lot at a bucket. All of them were in the Pacific except for the SM1/c who chased U-Boats, and all had different storys. With the Navy, each ship is a bit different so things are done a bit differently.

 

Steve Hesson

[giconceptsjw]

I think it should be pointed out that this shouldn’t be a thread to ridicule or belittle our veterans. We’ve all seen situations when their memory has obviously failed them but that happens to everyone. If I hear one of them say something that I know is obviously incorrect, I respectfully, smile, and nod and let it go. It’s not my place to argue with them and what does it really matter anyway. I try to think of their flawed stories & recollections as part of their charm. They certainly don’t deserve any less respect.

 

As far as public events and displays go, for some reason WWII veterans seem to be far more receptive than the Vietnam vets and I have no idea why. Maybe it’s just me but I’ve seen WWII vets approach a display with a big smile and lots of enthusiasm. On the other hand, I’ve seen lots of Vietnam veterans approach displays with a frown and a pissed off attitude. I have friends who’ve put a lot of work into setting up huge Vietnam displays for public events. For some reason, there are always a large number of veterans who are angered by this. They say things like, “you weren’t there man you don’t know” and “you’re walking on my grave”. I’ve never encountered anything like that doing WWII events. Maybe it’s the different politics of the Vietnam war, I’m not sure. Whatever the reason, a lot of them are very angry people. I always wondered why they would go to a public military history event if the subject is a sore spot with them. Are they going out of their way to be angered and give the people there a hard time? Besides, the people who spend their time & money to set up displays are there to honor the veterans. Why should that make anyone mad? I never understood that one.

[giconceptsjw]

Here’s another one (sort of); Walking the isles of a militaria show I saw a Vietnam era photo album for sale. It was marked as a Special Forces MACV-SOG vet album so I was curious and looked through it. The photos in it were the small 3”x3” color snap shots typical of the time. The photos had a ¼” white border around them with the date printed in small black letters. I have photos of me as a kid that look exactly the same. Anyway, the dates on the snap shots were all in the mid 1970’s up to 1979. They showed buddy type photos and were obviously post Vietnam era judging by the ALICE gear and uniforms. I mentioned to the guy selling it that the photos were dated after the Vietnam War was over. He abruptly replied that he got the album from a SF Vietnam veteran and said, “Are you calling the vet a liar?” Of course I just smiled and walked away.

 

J

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

In some cases you have to give the old guys a break when it comes to their memory. Often it's been years since they've seen the equipment they used. Some of even looks similar in design but some doesn't at all so it's all a matter of perception and, of course fabrication in some instances.

 

I've spoken to my share of Veterans. The older they get the less they can remember specifics and details. Usually they're pretty clear on their stuff but the differences between a WWII Mussette Bag and similar items used through the Korean war would make a guy take a double take. Even the helmets are similar. Guys with expertise in collecting can tell the difference but an old soldier would look at a WWII helmet or a Korean War helmet and not really tell the difference. Similarly with the cartridge belts, packs and suspenders. They all kinda look alike to me too but now I'm learning to tell the differences.

 

Some old guys just don't remember.

 

Rock

[Andrei]

A couple of years ago, two friends and I went to visit Las Vegas after the Great Western Show. On our way back to LA we stopped in Barstow at the famous diner where the movie Bagdad Cafe was shot.

We were having our breakfast when one old fellow came to our table. He greeted us in broken french and sat with us.

He said he was at US embassy in Paris during 60s. His french was poor but ok. His recollection of the streets of Paris was very good and we assumed he was a former driver.

I asked him what was his job at the embassy like ambassador driver. He replied very upset that he was the ambassador of the USA in Paris himself.

We did a pause... I asked him again in english and he said again he was a "retired" ambassador of the USA.

We did a longer pause and smiled and drove back to LA.

The man was toothless, dressed nearly like a homeless person...

That is sure that he knew Paris well and probably worked at the US embassy but certainly not as the american ambassador.

[Garandomatic]

Kinda opposite thing happened to a friend of my dad. He was on some foreign trade trip in the 1980s and there was a pretty boisterous fell with them that was very good at the wining and dining and always had a story. He claimed he was on a high ranking officer's staff or something of that nature, and was only a few feet away from the signing of the surrender documents on the USS Missouri. Nobody called him a liar, but based on the guy's personality, everybody just kinda politely said "sure ya were!" to themselves and the trip moved on. Later, my dad's buddy looked up a picture of the surrender, and sure enough, there was a younger version of the fella they were on the trip with on the Missouri on that fateful day.

 

A couple of years ago, two friends and I went to visit Las Vegas after the Great Western Show. On our way back to LA we stopped in Barstow at the famous diner where the movie Bagdad Cafe was shot.

We were having our breakfast when one old fellow came to our table. He greeted us in broken french and sat with us.

He said he was at US embassy in Paris during 60s. His french was poor but ok. His recollection of the streets of Paris was very good and we assumed he was a former driver.

I asked him what was his job at the embassy like ambassador driver. He replied very upset that he was the ambassador of the USA in Paris himself.

We did a pause... I asked him again in english and he said again he was a "retired" ambassador of the USA.

We did a longer pause and smiled and drove back to LA.

The man was toothless, dressed nearly like a homeless person...

That is sure that he knew Paris well and probably worked at the US embassy but certainly not as the american ambassador.

[Mr. Standfast]

Kinda opposite thing happened to a friend of my dad. He was on some foreign trade trip in the 1980s and there was a pretty boisterous fell with them that was very good at the wining and dining and always had a story. He claimed he was on a high ranking officer's staff or something of that nature, and was only a few feet away from the signing of the surrender documents on the USS Missouri. Nobody called him a liar, but based on the guy's personality, everybody just kinda politely said "sure ya were!" to themselves and the trip moved on. Later, my dad's buddy looked up a picture of the surrender, and sure enough, there was a younger version of the fella they were on the trip with on the Missouri on that fateful day.

 

Which one was it? :think:

 

[Garandomatic]

Not sure, but THAT'S a true story!

[ColBob506]

Gotta chime in on the photo album thing... You do know that those little dates on them are from when they were developed and not when they were taken?My mom had pictures of me in my first year (1963) all were dated 1973,that's when she got around to having them developed.

Sparrow

[Cobra 6 Actual]

I'll have to admit to being a "veteran that didn't notice": I was once interviewed by a guy writing a book about uniforms and equipment used in Vietnam. I served there as a rifleman, 1968-1969. I wasn't a collector back then, but he seemed like a nice guy and I was glad to help him out.

 

Then the questions began. "Did the jacket have tabs at the waist?" I didn't know. "How about epaulettes?" I didn't know, but I thought, perhaps, maybe, at one point they did. However we didn't like them because the straps on the rucksack pressed them into our skin ... but, I wasn't 100% sure.

 

He had photos of various insignia and equipment being worn and used. Then, more questions. "Did your unit issue bayonets?" "Did anyone wear a metal CIB in the field?" "Was it full color or subdued?" Folks, I was in my 30's then, so can't even claim Alzheimer's Disease as an excuse. My lack of knowledge was truly startling.

 

Then, I realized I had other things on my mind back then ... like staying alive. And, to make matters worse I wasn't a collector then: this was just stuff I wore or used.

 

Now tack on to all of that the fact that I later served stateside, active and reserve, in a variety of military units that issued a variety of equipment, plus I now am old and a bit forgetful ... we've got the "perfect storm" brewing.

[willysmb44]

My day job is investigating auto accidents for liability. A guy two weeks ago claimed to not only be a WW1 vet and but also a former President of the US and either the father of Grandfather of 3 other former presidents.

It was really hard not to laugh...

 

Here’s another one (sort of); Walking the isles of a militaria show I saw a Vietnam era photo album for sale. It was marked as a Special Forces MACV-SOG vet album so I was curious and looked through it. The photos in it were the small 3”x3” color snap shots typical of the time. The photos had a ¼” white border around them with the date printed in small black letters. I have photos of me as a kid that look exactly the same. Anyway, the dates on the snap shots were all in the mid 1970’s up to 1979. They showed buddy type photos and were obviously post Vietnam era judging by the ALICE gear and uniforms. I mentioned to the guy selling it that the photos were dated after the Vietnam War was over. He abruptly replied that he got the album from a SF Vietnam veteran and said, “Are you calling the vet a liar?”

 

I have had the same experience, with a obviously post-WW2 album, and I had the exact same reaction, "Are you saying that a veteran lied to me?"

I sort of snapped a little. I asked the guy if he'd ever served and the dealer sheepishly launched into all the reasons why he never had. "Loving the vets is one thing," I told him, "But thinking they're all saints beyond reproach is crazy. Lots of worthless SOBs served in any timeframe. I had plenty under my command, that's for sure." I went on by saying that though a vet remembered something being a certain timeframe, doesn't make it so. Memory can do odd things to someone (for example, I recently found the report on a UH-1 crash I was in. I remember the damages to the bird at the altitude we were at when the engine quit being far worse than the report said it was. I came to the conclusion that my mind simply made it worse than it was, especially when I saw a photo of the bird after the incident and it wasn't nearly as banged up as I'd recalled).

In closing I said, "I'm not saying he's a liar, but I am saying he either didn't recall when these shots were taken or that he'd had a time machine because he's got photos of stuff that didn't exist in WW2. And that's a simple fact you can confirm with 20 minutes on Google" as I pointed out some M-38 Jeeps in one shot and some M-20 bazookas in another.

[Sgt_Rock_EasyCo]

I've driven the WWII jeeps at parades and wwii battles. Comparing them to the M151 reveals that they're nearly identical in ride and handling. To me it's a jeep, technical differences aside.

 

Rock

[Cobra 6 Actual]

Expanding on my Post #18 and the "Veteran that didn't notice" theme: sometimes I've run into fellow veterans that served in a different unit or were in a different service and after talking to them for awhile came to realize that there are 'cultures' and 'sub-cultures' that exist, even for people that have a lot of common experiences.

 

An example is that I used to go to a local range to shoot and would also talk to the other guys there, most of whom were also vets. One guy was in Vietnam around the same time as me and was even in the same area of operations, III Corps. We got to talking about weapons (the M-14 versus the M-16, the AK-47 versus the M-16, etc.) and I mentioned that I had a Thompson sub-machine gun for awhile when I was in an advisory team. He didn't outright call me a liar, but he made it clear that he thought that was the case. I explained to him that when I was in the field in an infantry platoon I had an M-16, but as an advisor I was allowed to select whichever weapon(s) I wanted from the unit's armory. So, I got the Thompson ... but, man, that thing and its stick magazines were really heavy, so I only kept it for a few weeks before 'trading it in' for an M-16. Again, he refused to believe me.

 

It took me some digging around the house, but the next time I saw him a few weeks later I had a photo of me sitting in a jeep with that Thompson. He sputtered a bit, but then said something like "Well, we didn't have those in my unit or any of the units I saw." Then it dawned on me: yes, we served in the same AO around the same time. However, he was an Army dentist in a medical unit. What he was issued or saw could have been very different to what I saw as a grunt in a line unit or as an advisor in a team. His world was in a whole different culure than mine.

 

Now, whenever I discuss what insignia or equipment was used in Vietnam I always clarify that this was what was issued or worn in my battalion or advisory team during 1968-1969 (even though I was a guy who DIDN'T notice back then, I have studied my photos of gear and insignia since then and definitely do notice now).

 

My point in this long posting is simply that some very unlikely things did happen, some very unlikely gear and insignia was used, and I try to be careful not to try to be too definitive about "Yes, this is real" or "No, it's not" ... but, photos definitely help to clarify!

[doyler]

In some cases you have to give the old guys a break when it comes to their memory. Often it's been years since they've seen the equipment they used. Some of even looks similar in design but some doesn't at all so it's all a matter of perception and, of course fabrication in some instances.

 

I've spoken to my share of Veterans. The older they get the less they can remember specifics and deptails. Usually they're pretty clear on their stuff but the differences between a WWII Mussette Bag and similar items used through the Korean war would make a guy take a double take. Even the helmets are similar. Guys with expertise in collecting can tell the difference but an old soldier would look at a WWII helmet or a Korean War helmet and not really tell the difference. Similarly with the cartridge belts, packs and suspenders. They all kinda look alike to me too but now I'm learning to tell the differences.

 

Some old guys just don't remember.

 

Rock

Rock...totally agree.Some dont rememer or really care.They were soldiers. ...not collectors.I have met and spoke to vets from WW1 to current times.The items they were issued and used were tools or clothing to them.Have seen others hammer some Vets at events about details and the vets will often look confused or dont know how to answer.They dont know what a Model 41 from Model 43 field jacket is...its a coat or field jacket to them.They are not concerned if it was a first pattern, second model, fourth type, variation #7, horizontal weave,olive drab shade 10 transitional.Just ask a 101st vet what type patch he wore in WW2 and see what he says....