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Robbins (C. H. Robbins) Co. of Attleboro, MA: Examples and Patterns


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  • 5 weeks later...
John Cooper

I just noticed I forgot to add the reverse shot...

 

Here is the makers mark. I recently learned from a friend this was the version used starting in the early 50s

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Hi John,

 

I wanted to point out a couple of things vis a vis this wing.

 

1) The winged "R" hallmark that I usually see on post WWII wings is usually excised (sticking up) and is pretty sharp. This looks kind of like an "A" being hit by a pan. Also, the font of the R between an original and this wing do not seem to match.

 

2) The STERLING mark is excised and very sharp while the hallmark is incised right next to it and very crude in your wing. Also, if you look at the sterling mark, the depth of the strike is even across the whole work (one side isnt sticking out more than the other), on the other hand, the left side of the hallmark is clearly deeper than the right side of the hallmark. This suggests strongly to me that the Robbins hallmark was added later by hand and is NOT integral to the original strike.

 

3) I also believe that the Robbins use of the Winged R is a post war-50's hallmark (but I am also aware of some controversy that this may be a hallmark that was used late in WWII). By the 1950's the navigator wing was obsolete and the nw USAF version would have been appropriate. Typically, the winged R hallmark (IIRC) seems to be almost always in the center of the shield, not on the side of the wing.

 

4) This pattern wing does not match the wartime Robbins wing pattern. This looks like a generic WWII graduation wing.

 

5) The back is highly polished while the front seems to show little polish or wear. At least in the photos you provide, the difference between the front and back seems striking. One wonders why that would be?

 

I wonder if someone didnt add a Robbins hallmark to a generic Navigator graduation wing in an attempt to boost its value?

 

Based on these points, this wing doesnt give me the warm-fuzzy feeling.

 

I have noticed an increasing number of fake wings in which either a NS Meyer restrike or a generic gradation wing is "sexed" up with the addition of a hallmark for a rare or sometimes even a fantasy maker. I first started seeing this with AMICO and AECo hallmarks being added to Meyer restrikes. I started seeing a number of fantasy makers or highly sought after makers starting to appear on other wings, usually a common pattern. These fakes always have a couple of "tells". 1) they always have an incised hallmark (because it is added later), 2) it is usually a hallmark in the wrong size/font and location, and 3) is almost always on either a fake, restrike or common wing.

 

That being said, you have the wing in your hand and you are a pretty savy collector, so you are the best one to make that call, IMHO.

 

Best

 

Patrick

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Hi John,

All of my father's 4-5 full size wings are of this obverse design; 4 are marked with a raised sterling; 1 is not marked except where he scratched in his Sept. 1943 graduation date. I suspect he purchased these wings during the 4th Q of 1943 in the US as he left for England about Christmas.

That he scratched his graduation date into the unmarked wing is somewhat puzzling, since most folks believe that all graduation wings are sterling and so marked; however, his marking would suggest otherwise, unless for some reason he chose to mark a wing other than the one given to him at graduation. I wish I knew, but I suspect that even he might not have a clear recollection of that small issue.

Two of his wings are pin backs with the slick back design and a concave detent behind the device. The pin hardware is mounted within the marks on the backs. The other two are clutch backs, again with the pins located within the marks. Yours is interesting in that the posts are not within the location marks, and they appear to have small heads (nails) unlike my father's wings. It also appears to be a slick back...is there a detent?

I tend to agree with Patrick that the Robbins mark may have been added to enhance the value. However, our mutual friend said he thought this obverse design was a Blackinton die, but I haven't seen anything like it with a solid Blackinton tie, nor have I seen the Robbins mark on a wing like this one. Is your wing a full 3" long? There is another point about this wing that is interesting; that being, the sterling mark is located where none of the wings of this type that I've had were marked. All of the wings I've seen of this type are marked in the center of the detent.

 

Paul S.

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John Cooper

Thanks for the posts guys. Let me add some more to this discussion:

 

1) The winged R appears to have been used in both raised and incised versions. The raised starting prior to 1952 and the incised 1952 and after.

 

2) I doubt the mark being added to a post war wing would raised the value much as the 50s wings generally do not bring high $$ Now this is not to say it is not possible but I doubt in in the case of this specific wing.

 

I will add some photos to help with the discussion.

 

The first two will be from another collector as marked.

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John Cooper

Hi Paul,

 

To address your questions:

 

Yes the wing is the full size and you are correct about the "nails"...

 

I will let the photos speak on this point. I too think this is an interesting wing in that you can see the reverse was set up to take a pin type attachment as well as the clutch back. (i.e. there are two sets of mounting guides)

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Howdy John,

 

As i said, you have the wing in front of you and as I said you are pretty savy and I think well versed enough to make a spot-on assesment and it would be presumptuous of me to second guess you. Also, you are correct, one way or the other, the value of this wing wont likely change much either way. Still, I remain put off by this wing and would be hesitant to have it in my collection from what I can see. But that doesnt mean I aint wrong, as they say.

 

Interesting stuff posts on the other information.

 

P

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John Cooper

Patrick,

 

When I think about it if this was a WW2 wing vs. a Korean war era wing like I think then the guy would have reduced the value in my opinion by stamping it.

 

 

The cool thing is that there are so many interesting wings to collect... for all I know ROBBINS made the wing thinking they would get a goverment contract and did not so them the retroactively stamped them and sold them as private purchase wings instead.

 

John

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John Cooper

Here is some additional information on the Robbins Co. as it relates to their hallmarks. These are two silver hallmark websites for collectors as you can see the stamped winged R is shown as a good mark.

 

John

 

http://www.silvercollecting.com/silvermarksR.html

 

http://www.925-1000.com/americansilver_R.html

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Hi John,

You've convinced me that this design is a Robbins product...not sure that I've seen it on other wings except the navigator, though. I think Blackinton and Robbins are both Attleboro based makers. As an old sterling flatware collector, it's interesting to note that although both Robbins and Blackinton are well regarded wings makers, neither of them are considered by the sterling collectors as high order producer-designers, although they both produced lines of flatware.

I'm not too sure what to make of the post war production of WWII wing designs. I think there were some permissions granted or grandfathered for certain USAF airmen who had served in the old AAF. My father was recalled to serve during the Korean War and served 1951-52 but did not purchase or wear the USAF wing...he was not on flight status during those months but did simply continue to wear his WWII navigator wings.

I've only seen one other WWII type navigator with a post WWII mark; that one made by Vangaurd and marked with their 1-V mark. Since the 2-character mark dates to about 1960, and your wing is not so marked, it suggests to me that your wing could be one of those difficult to identify post WWII wings of the late 40's to early 60's; or even more intriguing is that it could be a WWII piece that someone at Robbins decided to mark...who knows. Whatever it is, it's an interesting piece and I would really like to get a HD front back of it for my navigator collection.

BTW, I do have a picture of a 2" Aircrew marked like your navigator.

 

Paul S.

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  • 2 years later...

OK all you experts out there, have a question. I picked these up years ago and have never seen this example referenced in any of the books depicting navy wings. They have the straight line along the top of the wings as opposed to those found in the 30's and 40's. Drop in catch and nice arch like an archers bow to the wing. The unique thing is the small feathers (not berries) in the shoulders. Anyone have any idea as to exact period? I don't collect navy so I am at a loss and as stated earlier have seen no ref to any navy wing with the small feathering in the shoulders. They are distinctly different than the WW2 wings.

Thanks,

 

Terry

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OK all you experts out there, have a question. I picked these up years ago and have never seen this example referenced in any of the books depicting navy wings. They have the straight line along the top of the wings as opposed to those found in the 30's and 40's. Drop in catch and nice arch like an archers bow to the wing. The unique thing is the small feathers (not berries) in the shoulders. Anyone have any idea as to exact period? I don't collect navy so I am at a loss and as stated earlier have seen no ref to any navy wing with the small feathering in the shoulders. They are distinctly different than the WW2 wings.

Thanks,

 

Terry

 

Close up of feathering in shoulder.

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Terry,

 

While by no means an expert :wacko:, yours is definitely an early style WW2 type badge. The original design approved right after our entry into WW2 called for a series of "small feathers" to be added in the upper part of the shoulders where the wings break such as seen on your badge; however, it was not long thereafter before a cluster of "berries," would be adopted by the manufactures as being more appropriate... and that tradition has continued to be true up to the present day.

 

Cliff

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Terry,

 

While by no means an expert :wacko:, yours is definitely an early style WW2 type badge. The original design approved right after our entry into WW2 called for a series of "small feathers" to be added in the upper part of the shoulders where the wings break such as seen on your badge; however, it was not long thereafter before a cluster of "berries," would be adopted by the manufactures as being more appropriate... and that tradition has continued to be true up to the present day.

 

Cliff

Cliff,

Thanks, that answers my question. I had looked through several ref books, but could never find any with the feathers.

Terry

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Cliff,

Thanks, that answers my question. I had looked through several ref books, but could never find any with the feathers.

Terry

 

I have a similar wing that is hallmarked Robbins. Here is a thread that I started some time ago on the wing transitions.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...mp;hl=usn+wings

 

nice wing, I would say early 30's vintage, myself.

 

Patrick

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:unsure:

Terry, there is no question that yours is a rare badge for the period in question.

 

Patrick. your theory has merit yet officially in March 1942 a meeting of the Navy Department Uniform Board approved the change to "feathers" based on a recommendation from the Chief of the Bureau of Aeronautics (BUAER), RADM John H. Towers.

 

-cp

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Terry,

 

Here's a link to the same wing on my site but marked Robbins. Unfortunately it's not in my own collection so I can't get you better pictures of it. Here's another one I have but the feathers aren't quite as detailed as on the Robbin's pattern. These feather shoulder wings are out there but they are rare.

 

Thanks,

Bob

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Here is mine. It has a Robbins hallmark on one side and a 1/20th 10K mark on the other. An early style catch. This one came out of an estate to a guy who was an early 30's USN pilot. He seemed to have retired from the Navy just before WWII started.

 

P

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Terry,

 

Here's a link to the same wing on my site but marked Robbins. Unfortunately it's not in my own collection so I can't get you better pictures of it. Here's another one I have but the feathers aren't quite as detailed as on the Robbin's pattern. These feather shoulder wings are out there but they are rare.

 

Thanks,

Bob

 

 

 

This is an interesting thread.

 

Food for thought:

 

Robbins made Naval Aviator wing badges through-out World War II; however, have any of us ever seen one made by them with berries rather than feathers in the upper shoulder areas, and/or a WWII type hook-under, then lock safety catch; rather than a U-shape, drop-in safety catch? No, because they never made any.

 

An interest study:

Badge #1 is identical to the one that Terry has with feathers in both upper shoulder areas plus a u-shape, drop-in safety catch. It does not have any markings on the back.

 

Badge #2 is a bit curious looking because it only has a small group of feathers in the upper right shoulder area, rather than both. It is backmarked STERLING+, 1/20 10K GF.

 

Badge #3 has either feathers or berries in the upper shoulder areas... so you be the judge. It is backmarked 1-20-10K on STERLING.

 

Cliff

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This is an interesting thread.

 

Food for thought:

 

Robbins made Naval Aviator wing badges through-out World War II; however, have any of us ever seen one made by them with berries rather than feathers in the upper shoulder areas, and/or a WWII type hook-under, then lock safety catch; rather than a U-shape, drop-in safety catch? No, because they never made any.

 

An interest study:

Badge #1 is identical to the one that Terry has with feathers in both upper shoulder areas plus a u-shape, drop-in safety catch. It does not have any markings on the back.

 

Badge #2 is a bit curious looking because it only has a small group of feathers in the upper right shoulder area, rather than both. It is backmarked STERLING+, 1/20 10K GF.

 

Badge #3 has either feathers or berries in the upper shoulder areas... so you be the judge. It is backmarked 1-20-10K on STERLING.

 

Cliff

 

Cliff,

Very interesting. Badge #2 odd that the feathers are only on one side. All beautiful wings to be sure.

Terry

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Robbins made Naval Aviator wing badges through-out World War II; however, have any of us ever seen one made by them with berries rather than feathers in the upper shoulder areas, and/or a WWII type hook-under, then lock safety catch; rather than a U-shape, drop-in safety catch? No, because they never made any.

 

Cliff

 

Hi Cliff,

 

Just curious, but HOW do you know they never made any with berries and "standard" WW2 hardware? Could they have made them but simply not marked them with their company name (ie only Sterling +- gold plating details)?

 

Also, I'm wondering where your post was going. Do you think there is a connection between the examples you showed and Robbins, or was it simply to show a sort of progression from shoulder feathers to berries?

 

Regards

Mike

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If I had a PANCRAFT navy wing I would post it so as to add to the comparison \ contrast.

 

 

BTW Terry thanks for posting your wing as it help start a very education thread.

 

Regards,

John

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