37thguy Posted April 25, 2009 Share #26 Posted April 25, 2009 Thanks for the responses. I'm wondering if one gauge would be by looking at divisions' number of DUC's. How about by the MOH's awarded? 37th had 6, 5 of 'em to the 148th Infantry alone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted April 25, 2009 Share #27 Posted April 25, 2009 27th Infantry Division Activated: 15 October 1940. Overseas: 10 March 1942. Campaigns: Various elements participated in several campaigns in the Pacific but not the entire division. The entire division certainly did participate in a number of campaigns throughout the Pacific. Wikipedia needs to update their entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPage Posted April 25, 2009 Author Share #28 Posted April 25, 2009 How about by the MOH's awarded? I don't know that that would be a very good gauge, partly because of the difficulty in getting that medal awarded. DSC's and Silver Star's would therefore also have to be included, although I seem to think that unit citations are a much more accurate representation of what the division was accomplishing. I perused the internet and came up with the following (I only included those divisions with a higher number of DUC's): 1st Cav Distinguished Unit Citations: 10. Awards: MH-2; DSC-14; DSM-4; SS-542 7th ID Distinguished Unit Citations: 9. Awards: MH-3; DSC-26; DSM-1; SS-982 11th A/B Distinguished Unit Citations: 13. Awards: MH-2; DSC-9; SS-432 32nd Distinguished Unit Citations: 14. Awards: MH-11; DSC-37; DSM-1; SS-657 37th Distinguished Unit Citations: 9. Awards: MH-7; DSC-116; DSM-4; SS-1,008 By way of comparison the 77th Division (the control group) had 16 DUC's: 77th ID Distinguished Unit Citations: 16. Awards: MH-6; DSC-19; DSM-2; SS-335 EDIT: It's also interesting to note that the 11th Airborne, 7th and 77th Divisions all had about 200 days in combat, which is lower than many of the others, yet had a higher number of DUC's than most others, i.e., they earned more over a shorter period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pac_bob Posted April 26, 2009 Share #29 Posted April 26, 2009 You overlooked the Wildcats..... 81st Infantry Division - Palaus , Leyte Also, though not a division, no US Army Pacific theater list would be complete without mentioning the Bushmasters - 158th Regimental Combat Team ... not to mention the 112th Cavalry RCT and the 503rd Parachute RCT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_Andrews Posted April 26, 2009 Share #30 Posted April 26, 2009 It seems that this thread has lost it way. The keyword WAS "capable", not which Divs had the most days credited in combat, or medals, etc. Maybe "capable" needs some defining.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPage Posted April 26, 2009 Author Share #31 Posted April 26, 2009 It seems that this thread has lost it way. The keyword WAS "capable", not which Divs had the most days credited in combat, or medals, etc. Maybe "capable" needs some defining.... The quote was that the 77th Division was one of three army divisions in the Pacific who could be relied upon to undertake any mission, any time (so who were the other two?). I do not think that medals earned, nor a high number of days in combat, are a factor in any determination of that, although I suspect that one thing that would point to a unit's capability would be a higher number of DUC's; this would suggest a higher level of capability since it's a unit award. What is interesting is that the unit mentioned, the 77th ID, indeed had a high number of DUC's; it also had a shorter number of days in combat, earning the DUC's in a shorter time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted April 26, 2009 Share #32 Posted April 26, 2009 The quote was that the 77th Division was one of three army divisions in the Pacific who could be relied upon to undertake any mission, any time (so who were the other two?). I do not think that medals earned, nor a high number of days in combat, are a factor in any determination of that, although I suspect that one thing that would point to a unit's capability would be a higher number of DUC's; this would suggest a higher level of capability since it's a unit award. What is interesting is that the unit mentioned, the 77th ID, indeed had a high number of DUC's; it also had a shorter number of days in combat, earning the DUC's in a shorter time frame. Yeah, but you can't go by that either. It all depended on what objectives were assigned to a given unit. If a division was given mop-up duties for most of it's combat career, does that make it any less capable? The 77th happened to have some exotic assignments. I'm sure you could pick just about any division in the Pacific campaign for any assignment, and they would most likely carry it out pretty much the same. It comes down to doctrine. The discriminator on capability would be training and equipment. Then you would have to move onto Airborne or Ranger units. -Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEAST Posted April 26, 2009 Share #33 Posted April 26, 2009 Don't forget the 34th RCT! As a Hoosier, I tend to be biased to the 38th Infantry Division. However, I agree with Bugme, the 32nd ID had a very enviable record. I just finished reading " Avengers of Bataan, the BAttle of Zig-Zag Pass." This is one of the best histories of a battle that I have ever read! Written by a veteran of the 34th RCT, it follows the 34th RCT and the 38th ID in the fight to cut off Bataan from retreating Japanese forces in 1945. It is written as an analysis of the battle as opposed to a "There I was" history. Highly recommend this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37thguy Posted April 26, 2009 Share #34 Posted April 26, 2009 I agree that it would be hard to beat the 32d as the longest serving division. But being biased as I am, I'll say that the 37th was more than capable and proved it time and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted April 26, 2009 Share #35 Posted April 26, 2009 Excellent discussion, the war in the Pacific was hell for most units. Being from Illinois I was always partial to the Americal Dvision being that Illinois supplied one of its NG units the 132nd Infantry to its makeup. The Americal divison was patchwork of units that had been pulled together from Reg Army and the N.G. They were activated in New Caledonia on 24 May 1942. They were hussled on along to Guadalcanal to help relieve Marine forces in November of 1942. Battles credits are Guadalcanal, Northern Solomons, Leyte, Southern Phillipines. For those who might not know the word Americal is a combination of America and Caledonia. Best Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atb Posted April 26, 2009 Share #36 Posted April 26, 2009 You also overlooked the Blackhawks. The 86thThey left Europe and went to the Philippines. Thus serving in both major theaters. However, the 86th Division was aboard ship in Leyte harbor when the Japanese surrendered. After landing on Luzon the unit was dispersed throughout the Island. Some to Marikena, some to other locations. A few assigned to Corregador Island to guard Japanese prisoners of war. The 97th was the other Infantry Division that redeployed from Europe to the Pacific after VE-Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
37thguy Posted April 26, 2009 Share #37 Posted April 26, 2009 Excellent discussion, the war in the Pacific was hell for most units. Being from Illinois I was always partial to the Americal Dvision being that Illinois supplied one of its NG units the 132nd Infantry to its makeup. The Americal divison was patchwork of units that had been pulled together from Reg Army and the N.G. They were activated in New Caledonia on 24 May 1942. They were hussled on along to Guadalcanal to help relieve Marine forces in November of 1942. Battles credits are Guadalcanal, Northern Solomons, Leyte, Southern Phillipines. For those who might not know the word Americal is a combination of America and Caledonia. Best Jack Illinois also supplied the 129th Infantry Rgt (NG) to the 37th in WW2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish Posted April 26, 2009 Share #38 Posted April 26, 2009 Illinois also supplied the 129th Infantry Rgt (NG) to the 37th in WW2 Yes you are correct the Ill 129th Inf. did serve with the 37th. My father who was drafted in Jan 1943 was a member of the 754th Tank Bn. They were also attached at times to the 37th Division. My father participated in the Northern Solomons and Lingayen Gulf Invasion " main island of Luzon". They fought there way down the Island and seen heavy fighting retaking the capital Manila. Best Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPage Posted April 27, 2009 Author Share #39 Posted April 27, 2009 Yeah, but you can't go by that either. It all depended on what objectives were assigned to a given unit. If a division was given mop-up duties for most of it's combat career, does that make it any less capable? The 77th happened to have some exotic assignments. I'm sure you could pick just about any division in the Pacific campaign for any assignment, and they would most likely carry it out pretty much the same. It comes down to doctrine. The discriminator on capability would be training and equipment. Then you would have to move onto Airborne or Ranger units. -Ski That's why I say that one of the other two divisions had to have been 11th Airborne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted April 27, 2009 Share #40 Posted April 27, 2009 I agree that it would be hard to beat the 32d as the longest serving division. But being biased as I am, I'll say that the 37th was more than capable and proved it time and again. Ditto that, and GO BUCKS! O-H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAW Posted April 27, 2009 Share #41 Posted April 27, 2009 I agree that it would be hard to beat the 32d as the longest serving division. But being biased as I am, I'll say that the 37th was more than capable and proved it time and again. Ditto that, and GO BUCKS! O-H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobrahistorian Posted April 27, 2009 Share #42 Posted April 27, 2009 I agree that it would be hard to beat the 32d as the longest serving division. But being biased as I am, I'll say that the 37th was more than capable and proved it time and again. I realize we're talking the Pacific, so forgive me for the hijack, but the division that holds the record for most combat in WWII was another National Guard division, the 34th "Red Bulls". They were in combat from November 42 through May of 45, 611 days total, a record that has not been matched since. As for capable divisions in the Pacific, they all were capable. Comparisons like this tend to remind me of the Military Channel's "Top Ten" shows, where inevitably I end up screaming at the TV (the Huey ranked LOWER than the Apache?! I'm an Apache driver and I think that's wrong!) When looking at rating criteria, time in combat is probably your best determining factor. DUCs can be used, but who is to say another division in the same situation wouldn't have gotten the same DUC? Decorations awarded? Sure, you can look at individuals as a microcosm of the whole. But comparing divisions combat records is often like comparing apples and jeep carburetors. Sure, they're about the same size, but they're completely different! Just my $.02. I'll get off the soapbox now... Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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