Nuremberg war crimes trial patch is it good or bad ?

[davekj]

 Hi All !!!

  I have a chance to buy this patch and would like your thoughts on its originality .

 I have not seen it in person but hope to Monday .

 I looked around the forum and really can't make a decision one way or another .

 I see stitch holes around the edge but that doesn't say a whole lot .

 I Thank You so much for your help !!!

  Dave

[Bill Scott]

Just my opinion I am not a fan of it something looks off to me.I might be 100% wrong but I would have to have it in hand to tell for sure.

[Bill Scott]

This is what I like to see.

[Persian Gulf Command]

Look at the "ragged" look of the Swastika, in the example posted by Bill. This is a characteristic that would have been the case just post WW2.

 

A U.S. service man would not accept a well-formed Swastika, representing the profound trauma that the Nazi Regime had just caused, on his uniform.    

[doughboy]

Well, I wouldn't say a service man would accept a well formed Swastika - right, it was undoubtedly the symbol of the darkest evil but the Nuremberg war crimes trial was a court of international perception and my personnel opinion is everyone should see a small swastika which was indicated at the forepoint of the key  as a symbol of the defeat of Nazi Germany.

Regarding your patch - it's a well made patch but I don't like the two different colors of the key and scale of gold and silver. Every original patch that I saw had only one color and that

was silver. The next red flag are the flames - these were normally not made of felt - good ones were made of red threads and hand woven like the one that Bill posted. My hint to you -

let it pass, it's a well made fake to hook unexperienced collectors. May I ask what should this patch cost ? Originals are expensive and very rare but not impossible to get. Another

comment: sometimes you see them with a gold or silver border - these are also repros - original War Crimes Trial patches are always hand embroidered and they have a black border.

Here is the patch of my collection and a picture where you can see the patch is worn- unfortunately not the best quality but you can see what counts.

[davekj]

  Thank You all for your help ! There was a few medals Good conduct , ETO camp. , Victory and bronze star . CIB , ribbon bar , collar brass and a 94th div patch . the victory and Good conduct were replacements long with the CIB . for $500 . so no deal on it .

  Thanks Again !!

 Dave

[Tolzer]

Here is another example.....

 

The outer black border represents the death of the millions of people caused by the Nazi Regime. The red area with the broken eagle into four parts represent the total destruction of the German empire by Allied forces by Russian, United States, France, United Kingdom. The gilt key with the swastika on the left side represents the Nazi's under lock and key, The scales represent the scales of justice and the area of blue represents Peace.

 

The 6850th Internal Security Detachment provided security for the International Military Tribunal during the Nurnberg Trials in Nurnberg, Germany. This was designed by B.C. Andrus, circa 1945 and was worn by the Officers and Enlisted men that COL Andrus commanded. Most of the soldiers handling these duties were in the 1st Infantry Division (especially "blue Spaders" of the 26th Infantry regiment) and thus wore the "Big Red One" SSI.

 

The Nuremberg Trials were military tribunals held by the Allied forces under international law and the laws of war after World War II, notable for the prosecution of prominent members of the leadership of Nazi Germany, who planned, carried out, or otherwise participated in the Holocaust and other war crimes. Collectors of history want the theatre made versions with a border usually in black with details in bullion. They all have the red flames at the bottom, the cracked eagle representing the Nazi government and the scales of justice, with a swastika at one end of the balance arm, which is actually a skeleton key unlocking the truth. A powerful symbol of the Nuremberg Trials. 

 

[KurtA]

Tolzer’s patch has felt, not embroidered thread, flames.   
Is that ok? 

[davekj]

  The patch Tolzer pictured is the one I saw that was nearest the one I posted .

 It is suprising that there are still threads from were it looks to have been sown on something at some time .

 

This came from a lady that inherited it from a family member she did not even know . The dealer just happen to be there when she was trying to

decide what to do with this persons stuff .

 

It was $1500 not $500 just noticed that .

Again Thank You ALL for your help  

 Dave

[doughboy]

The one from Tolzer looks good in my eyes. It's also hand embroidered but it has the flames in felt instead of red threads. When I said they have red threads ,I have to mention, on all the

original war crimes trial patches that I saw the flames were made with red threads. Another aspect we should regard is , the first war crimes trial patches were maid immediately after the war in 1945 made of former embroidery or tailor shops of the surrounding area in Nuremberg and they took what they had to make them.

[davekj]

So the one I posted is for sure a repro right ? The one Tolzer posted and the one I posted are close in my eye except for the

different colors of bullion . It even has traces of what looks like the same backing on it .

  Here is a picture of the whole group . everything else medals , CIB and ribbon bar are replacements .

and a pic of the bronze star .

  The frame has a date of 3-6-88 I guess that is when it was put together .

It would be great if he was wearing the patch in the picture .

  Thanks for the info and help !!

  I guess I will keep looking .

  Dave

 

[themick]

Don't yet conclude your is 100% fake.  Too many variations out  there to conclude that at this point.  

 

Steve

[spinnin4s]

Here is the very first 6850th Internal Security Detachment (Nurnberg Trials) patch that was submitted by Col. B. C. Andress for approval to the Office of the Quartermasters General in Washington, DC. Also attached are two original documents Col. Andress submited to Washington along with the patch.  Original patches should be constructed nearly identical to the one shown.

[themick]

With this most recent post, I have to say that the OP's post (davekj) matches the closest to the one Col. Andrus submitted for approval.  Not to say the others posted are bad, but the original one posted definitely has lots of points on its side for being an original.  Felt backing, ridge around the black border, different color bullion for key and scales, complete swastika, , etc.  I would happily buy the OP's patch as an original.

 

Steve

[davekj]

  I am even more confused now . spinnin4s is there a picture of the back ? I think this would help also . Like I said the one Tolzer posted has remnants of the same backing .

I think that would convince me of originality . I showed this to a guy I trust very much and he said it was a repro . I think this could go back and forth for a while .

Really no one is right but no one is wrong either . This is how it is with these rare patches , well anything that is rare .

The asmic show is coming up in July here in Ohio . I will see if the dealer will give me the time to take it there . I still want to believe it to be original , but I have to believe the facts not my heart . The evidence is pointing to original but also repro . In the end it is how I read the evidence . 

   Thank You all very much for your help !!

    Dave

[spinnin4s]

I believe it to be original.

[Bill Scott]

Spinin4s is correct after seeing the one he posted I agree that it looks correct. It is always nice to be proven wrong you might not believe me but that is how we all learn. Scotty  

[davekj]

  Hi Scotty ,

  You are right we learn from our mistakes . I am learning a lot about these patches . There are so many different variations .

I want to thank everyone who responded to help me with this patch and teach me a little more about them .

  Dave

[Persian Gulf Command]

So, what's the opinion for the "ragged" looking Swastika and the hand-woven flames? 

[Bill Scott]

Does not bother me in the least those Swastikas come from near perfect to a lot worse than what is shown.

[Bill Scott]

Here is the most exotic one I ever owned it came out of a flea market in Indiana many many years ago.

[spinnin4s]

That's a beauty! Original early post war German made. 

[davekj]

WOW !! That's an Awesome patch !!! Who ever made that one was skilled in the trade . Thank You for posting it ! 

Dave