Named WW1 & WW2 Sub Grouping

[easterneagle87]

A friend of mine just acquired this awesome grouping to a WW1 and WW2 US Navy submariner.  Which included: 

* Good Conduct; Named to, Charles V. Sayles, USS O-10, 21 AUG 1919, w/ships bars - USS Mercy &  USS V - THREE 

* Mexican Service #12687

* WW1 Victory w/ Patrol and Submarine bars

* American Defense Medal, w/ Fleet bar

* American Theater Medal and 

* WW2 Victory Medal

* Silver Submariners water wings 

and * Combat Patrol badge w/one star.

Could you get a combat patrol star out of a US port? Eastern Pacific - West coast? East coast - North to Greenland or South, Caribbean to South America? I'm just spit balling here. We did go out and have to search for both Japanese and German subs/raiders off of our coasts / or areas of influence/protection.   

(why no Pacific or European Theater medals, I'm not sure - see question above). 

 

Any info additional on this submariner would be greatly appreciated.  

  

 

[Josh B.]

I’ll take a look, but I have a feeling this group may belong to more than one serviceman.  Any back shots of the WWI victory medal clasps and dolphins?

 

 

[Josh B.]

I found an unusual (for me anyway) listing in the USS Bonita just pre-WWII in Nov '41 for a Charles V Sayles, CEM, with an earlier than usual service number 190-57-35 and F4C fleet reserve notation.  This person could have been a WWI- era sailor recalled for duty during the national emergency leading up to the war.  Maybe the same person? https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/155374428/charles-vernon-sayles

 

Many of the aging CPOs in the sub service were converted to warrant officers when the war broke out, and there were no billets for these men on subs making war patrols. Instead,  they filled land-based positions in the shops at submarine bases, fitting out new construction, and the like.  That rule changed late in the war(warrant officers did find their way onto subs on patrol), but early in the war that's the way it went.  "Younger" CPOs who saw pre-war submarine service were sometimes given the chance to obtain officer training and then converted to line officer status (the classic "mustang").  I'm familiar with both kinds of scenarios from my time researching and collecting sub materials. 

 

Regarding the patrol pin, I don't know of any WWI vet who earned a patrol pin except for an admiral who famously joined a successful patrol as an observer, a dubious decision on the part of navy leadership for obvious reasons.  If I owned the group, I'd use the service number provided above to get his records pulled at St Louis, and hopefully its a match to a guy who also earned the Mexican Service medal shown. 

 

No matter what, that's a wonderful early submarine GCM!  The WWI Vic medal configuration is a little unusual, because I thought naval personnel were only entitled to wear a single clasp (but I might be wrong here).

[easterneagle87]

Turns out this is MOST LIKELY a father  = son grouping. I got a chance to actually see the group and it is impressive. Here is a shot of the back of the patrol badge. 

 

Any ifo on that sailor would be appreciated.  

[Josh B.]

Paul Herman Sayles, Electricians Mate, 245 64 96.  War patrols aboard USS Sailfish beginning June 30 1944 through the end of the war.  A person with the same name retired as LCDR in 1971. So it's possible that Paul closed out WWII as an enlisted man, entered officer's training sometime after the war, and ended his career as a mustang.  That would explain the dolphin pin, especially if it is gold colored (I can't tell from the photo and no backmark was shared).

[Josh B.]

Seems like my thinking was likely correct.  This link verifies Paul Herman Sayles the enlisted man aboard SAILFISH did indeed become an officer after the war, and his father was also former USN CPO. 

 

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/5109550/paul-hermann-sayles

 

You now have more than enough to request this family's records at ST LOUIS and piece together their USN history.