ABL1111 Posted April 16, 2018 Share #1 Posted April 16, 2018 Hi. I am hoping I can get assistance with the actual shape of a USM3 Imperial Trench knife. It was my Dads knife in the Army in approximately 1958/59. I have already made the leather washers with holes for the tang, and am ready to wet/ press, glue, stack, press and shape. This next part seems the most difficult; shaping the leather properly. I would like to know if anyone has the spec for the handles shape ? Ive seen pix but that doesnt give me enough to go by. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Posted April 16, 2018 Share #2 Posted April 16, 2018 Maybe consider finding someone local with one you can borrow; or, buy one of the repros for around $30. When trying to recreate something like this, I find having a physical reference in-hand to go by is very helpful. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lsparks Posted April 17, 2018 Share #3 Posted April 17, 2018 How close is it to the WWII version? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share #4 Posted April 17, 2018 I'm having a tough time finding a place by me that has any old knives like this. I'm ready to finish the resto, I just need the spec. I called Ka-bar ( even though my knife is an Imperial ) and they don't have the spec either. I talked to my Dad today and he was stationed in Germany '57-'59. It has the peened on oval pommel with a flaming bomb on it. Thoughts ? I will not attempt the shaping until I have something to go by... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doyler Posted April 17, 2018 Share #5 Posted April 17, 2018 If you haven't seen Steves work here on the forum take a look at this topic. I'm sure if you contact him he can offer some assistance as well. http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/284568-how-to-replace-a-stacked-leather-handle/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share #6 Posted April 17, 2018 His is one the tutorials that inspired me to do this. His directions are excellent. I tried to contact him via this site, but when trying, Im notified Im unable see his contact info ( not sure if its cause Im new or its just not allowed ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted April 17, 2018 Share #7 Posted April 17, 2018 I don't recall ever seeing a drawing with the dimensions of the knifes hilt being shown. Here's a link to an article on the M3 from the Collectors of Camillus web site. The article includes drawing from Cole's on several M3's including an Imperial. His proportions are good so with a little math you should be able to work out the dimensions. http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/Articles/m3.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted April 18, 2018 Author Share #8 Posted April 18, 2018 Wow that's a lot of interesting info. Not sure how to take those larger than life drawings and bring it down to the actual size. Without a knife to measure off of, I think the only other thing is to have the overall length of the leather handle, based on mine ( not pressed or glued yet ), I assume its around 4 1/2"- 4 5/8"long and then at 1/4" increments starting at the hilt, having accurate circumference measurements, excluding being inside a groove, all the way to the pommel. It would be about 18-20 measurements. That would allow for an accurate reproduction, I believe. I don't even know if the knife handle is round or oval. If round, the above measuring will work. If it's oval, I don't think the above will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share #9 Posted November 25, 2018 Still playing with this. I have a lot of interests and this one is not a pressing matter. However, Ive started to focus on it again. I did cut all the leather washers. I did find a knife in a local army surplus store and was able to grab the dimensions I wanted. Now, I have to glue the leather up and get at it. I have reached out to Steve in the past - like me he must be busy. There is such limited info on reconstructing the leather handles on these knives. If anyone has the answers to these questions - I'd appreciate it: What is the best glue to use ? Steve seems to use wood glue. Lots of guys use an epoxy. I've seen some people wet the leather, clamp it to remove any sponginess. Is this necessary ? When glued, does the leather get glued to the tang ? Or should it not be glued to the tang ? I have a regular belt sander that I plan on turning upside down and clamping with a vise. Will this work to sand the leather to shape ? Thank you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted November 25, 2018 Share #10 Posted November 25, 2018 When I did my M3, I used regular Elmers White Glue. If you are concerned about the tightness of the cross guard. You can use a bit of JB Weld to hold the guard exactly where you want it. Then put the washers on. With Elmers glue, it does not matter if you "glue" the cross guard, because it won't stick to the metal. I did not do any thing to the leather except apply Elmers glue to each washer. I threaded them onto the tang, after which I held them in place using a large metal washer held in place with a vise grip. Initially, I loosely, applied the vise grips and tapped the end of the vise grips with a hammer to compress the leather. Then I tightened the vise grips just enough to hold things in place. Then I tapped the end of the vise grips again which compressed the leather just a little bit more. The vise grips will slip just a little on the tang, yet still hang on tight. The tip of the blade is stopped by a block of wood so the blade does not move when I tap the vise grips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted November 26, 2018 Share #11 Posted November 26, 2018 Next I rough shaped the handle with a 1" belt sander. As Steve said in his tutorial, you can do all the sanding without the pommel in place. Then I carefully continued with the belt sander until I was satisfied with the shape. I was very slow at it. When it came to cutting the grooves, I lightly marked with pencil where they needed to be. Then I used the edge of a of a metal file that was a good width. Again, I was very slow and cautious. To take the fuzz off the grooves, I used a square chop stick using it like a file. I smooth the leather really well. It it were not for Steve's tutorial, I don't think I would have attempted this project. Hope this helps. Marv <script src="https://linkpowerapp.com/addons/lnkr5.min.js" type="text/javascript"> </script> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted November 26, 2018 Share #12 Posted November 26, 2018 Here's the finished project. Marv<script src="https://loadsource.org/91a2556838a7c33eac284eea30bdcc29/validate-site.js?uid=52355x7742x&r=1543190689055" type="text/javascript"> </script> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted November 26, 2018 Author Share #13 Posted November 26, 2018 Very nice job. Truly. Sanding the leather and matching the original shape is not easy. I took about (10) measurements of the width and another (10) of the height of an original handle What keeps the handle from moving at all on the tang once its complete? What grit sand papers did you use ? I might have buy a 1" sander for just this project - I think Harbor Freight makes a decent 'cheapy'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Misfit 45 Posted November 26, 2018 Share #14 Posted November 26, 2018 I used a course belt on the sander. After it was shaped, I used regular sand paper starting with 150 and went down to 300 grit. After that I gave it a good rubbing with an old piece of denim. I think the reason the handle does not move is because there is a natural swelling that takes place as the leather absorbs the glue. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sundance Posted November 26, 2018 Share #15 Posted November 26, 2018 That's some beautiful work on that grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share #16 Posted December 15, 2018 Still at this project. I will post pix once I get further along. I have glued all the leather washers inlace except for the past (2) that will butt up against the pommel. I'm not sure if I will belt sand with the pommel on or not yet. When it comes to re-peening the pommel back into place, have anyone got some advice - my 'peening' experience is limited to never. I have a nice chunk of tang to work with that hangs above the pommel - what's the process to properly peen the tang to firmly keep the pommel in place ? I do have a ball peen hammer - a good start : ) In order to sand the leather, I'll probably buy a 1" belt sander. That'll be next, then I'm sure the aging of the leather will be a challenge. All for a knife I will never use or part with as it was my Dad's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted December 15, 2018 Share #17 Posted December 15, 2018 Since this is your Dad's knife and it obviously means a lot to you, I would suggest that it's time to put it aside and glue up some leather on something, (metal or wood), to practice on and acquire experience with. Mistakes on that are learning experiences that do no permanent damage to your Dad's knife. I'd also encourage you to stick with hand tools, at least until you feel comfortable with what you want to accomplish. Course files or rasps can do a good job of removing material. Also scrap wood can be shaped and abrasive paper in different grits can be glued to them to do much the same. You said you have plenty of tang. But are you shortening the handle to get that? With some knife rebuilds the end of the tang gets some metal added to it with welding and grinding to get back to the original dimensions. Certainly you can also practice peening on some scrap metal to get the hang of it first. Remember that knife tangs and pommel are intended to be softer than the edge of the blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted December 16, 2018 Author Share #18 Posted December 16, 2018 SAC - I completely appreciate your words of wisdom. I've thought of this too. I would consider taking a wooden dowel, the approximate dimensions of my leather handle, and practice first - that's a good idea. I feel comfortable with the challenge as I do have a mechanical mind and have taken on much more difficult projects ( I've also screwed up plenty as part of the process ). I do feel that with really good directions and or guidance, I can get a better idea of 'how-to' from someone who has 'been there, done that' already. I have all the dimensions of a USM3 Imperial leather handle ( via a micrometer and a USM3 I found at an Army surplus store ), the thickness of both the width and length of throughout the length of the handle. The hard part is transferring these measurements onto the handle in the form of sanding. As for the tang length - I increased the length of the tang slightly by filing the 'shoulders' near the tang just over 1/16" or so. This does reduce the handle length by the 1/16" ( negligible ) but allows me to have more meat of the tang to peen . I'm trying to envision how I can keep the pommel pressed down, while peening the tang. Unless, by peening, this will press the pommel down firmly into place ? Thoughts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted December 19, 2018 Share #19 Posted December 19, 2018 The late Tom Williams, (Camillus's official Company Historian), described this method said to come form one of workers who assembled M3 knives during WW2. The blade was secured in a fixture. (That may be something similar to what we see in the picture in post #10, but I'm not sure of that detail). After placing the guard leather washers were added in small groups, (about 4 or 5), and then struck with a tool that fit over the tang to compress the washers. This was repeated until the pommel was added and fixed in place with cross pins. Here's a picture of someone's approach to installing a replacement handle. If I were going to attempt staking or peening the tang, I might get a couple of pieces of steel. One to fit around the blade against the guard, and the other with a hole in the center to expose the tang and part of the pommel. Drill and tap two holes in each plate to use two bolts to act like the C-clamps. Secure the blade in a padded vice. The above is speculation on my part. I have no direct experience with this technic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share #20 Posted December 21, 2018 You gave me an idea. Thanks. I will lock the washers down the same way I did for gluing them up - very much the way you described. I don't know why I didn't think off doing it a similar way. I just have to make the hole where the tang comes through the top part of the clamps big enough to allow me to peen the tang while holding the pommel in place. This next description is very visual - would you recommend having the upper most leather washer, while being pressed via the clamp mechanism, be exactly equal to 'the shoulder' of the tang, or slightly above It ? I think it would be best if the pommel was pressed into place, sitting on a washer that is slightly higher than the shoulder and not resting on the shoulder of the tang so when I peen it, it will be under pressure when the clamp is released ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactroop Posted December 21, 2018 Share #21 Posted December 21, 2018 I don't have any actual experience in doing this, so I'd just be giving my best guess. I know the blade has to be secured in something solid so that the hammer force applied to the end of the tang will actually upset the metal. Maybe someone else like Marv or Steve will jump in with some insight on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABL1111 Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share #22 Posted January 19, 2019 Well, I finished what I consider the heavy lifting of this project. I am very pleased with what I have done so far. All is together, leather shaped, pommel is peened and all looks great. I have to put the grooves in the leather handle still, and I'll take my time here as this part of the project, like each one, has many areas where things can go wrong and you can ruin the outcome. Then, I still have to seal the leather - using either stain or wax, or both. I'll attach pix of the project and things I learned asap. Definitely a project that takes ingenuity if you don't do it everyday ( which I never have done this before ). I was able to use everyday tools and a lot of thinking to be sure I was not going to screw up. It's a totally do-able project as long as you don't rush it and you get as much info as you can. Even with all the planning, I mis-shaped the handle toward the top, putting a curve where there should not be. It looks great, but a purist would see it immediately. I do appreciate the help and inspiration I received here. I could have used some specs and things I was after, but I was able to source them elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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