CliffP Posted October 18, 2010 Share #26 Posted October 18, 2010 Hi Cliff, Just curious, but HOW do you know they never made any with berries and "standard" WW2 hardware? Mike, it's a reasonable question but I can't agree or disagree that it deserves a direct answer. That judgment will have to be made by you and others. Yes, it's not the answer you wanted but I gave a clue in post #6. I would rather say, must someone go into greater detail on every matter that he has had to learn while on his own over the years when ever he posts a comment on an open forum? Instead, I would prefer to send you a PM when I get back later today. Could they have made them but simply not marked them with their company name (ie only Sterling +- gold plating details)? Yes, and Robbins did exactly that. For heightened security reasons during the early stages of WWII the War Department issued orders that any badge purchased under contract with the USAAC and USN would not carry a manufactures hallmark. It did not apply to over-the-counter or open market sales but as the war progress, that restriction was relaxed and not enforced. It was also simple overlooked by some manufactures but not by Robbins. You might also check any example that you can find which is identical to the Robbins design but without a hallmark and you will see for yourself that they only have a U-shape, drop-in safety catch. Also, I'm wondering where your post was going. Do you think there is a connection between the examples you showed and Robbins, or was it simply to show a sort of progression from shoulder feathers to berries? Regards Mike There may have been a plausible connection between the examples shown in post #10 but how would any one prove it? I just thought their differences were interesting. All the same, it was not long after our entry into WWII that a cluster of "berries" rather than "feathers" on Naval Aviator wing badges were adopted by some manufactures as being more appropriate... but not by Robbins. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 19, 2010 Share #27 Posted October 19, 2010 This thread has been informative and fun to follow. Before reading Cliff's interesting and fact-filled posts, I was of the opinion Terry's illustrated wing was of late 1920's to late 1930's vintage. Now, I'm not so sure, but I'm full of questions. I'd like to share several badges with this pattern which don't easily fit into the parameters being described above. I believe we all agree the pattern under exam here was made by Robbins Company and produced both with and without their hallmark. I don't know of any other company manufacturing this unique feather pattern badge. I also believe we have debunked the tale that USN Enlisted Aviators wore silver, rather than gilt NAP wings during WWII. All facts unearthed so far indicate that silver NAP wings were issued and worn by Naval Aviation Observer's (NAO's) for a very short time from January 1927 to October 1929. Why then would the silver NAO wing depicted below be produced twelve years later during WWII? (Please keep in mind I hold Cliff and his knowledge of this great hobby in very high esteem!) Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 19, 2010 Share #28 Posted October 19, 2010 Here's the back of the near identical gilt and silver wings. Note the pin and catch hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 19, 2010 Share #29 Posted October 19, 2010 Is it possible the Robbin's Company introduced this wing design in the 1920's, then only made a few modest changes in the pin and catch assembly as they progressed into the WWII era? The same could be true of the Robbin's line of Army Air Corp Pilot wings. They introduced an Adams-style US AAC pilot wing in the 1920's, then did not produce a different designed pilot wing until after WWII. Here's another Robbin's gilt NAP badge with a more traditional WWII style stop-pin on the reverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 19, 2010 Share #30 Posted October 19, 2010 The back with a stop-pin assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 19, 2010 Share #31 Posted October 19, 2010 Double-tap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 19, 2010 Share #32 Posted October 19, 2010 Comparison shot of back of both gilt Robbins Company wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 19, 2010 Share #33 Posted October 19, 2010 Below is a comparison shot of a WWI era Robbins NAP wing without feathers in the shoulder (top) and the later NAP wing with unique feathers (bottom). Note the similarities in the hallmark...and the back of the wings, including curvature, are nearly identical. I see Ron Burkey has several nice examples of this wing illustrated on his web site (WWW.FLYINGTIGERANTIQUES.COM) including both "drop-in" catches and one example of a "wrap-around" catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted October 20, 2010 Share #34 Posted October 20, 2010 This thread has been informative and fun to follow. Before reading Cliff's interesting and fact-filled posts, I was of the opinion Terry's illustrated wing was of late 1920's to late 1930's vintage. Now, I'm not so sure, but I'm full of questions. Hi Russ, Just to reiterate a bit on some key points about the Robbins, Naval Aviation Pilot (NAP) wings that Terry posted in this thread: 1. The wings made by Robbins during World War I did not have any feathers, berries or dots in the upper area of the shoulders. The safety catch on the back was a “lever lock” device (1910-1918), sometimes called a “Tiffany-style C” catch. They also had an early Robbins trade-mark with three images stamped on the back. The trade-mark would look like the one in the picture at the bottom of this post. 2. All wings produced by Robbins between WWI and WWII were identical to the WWI wings but they had a “U-shape” drop-in type safety catch. Oh, and they did not have the early Robbins trade-mark on the back. 3. In March 1942 the Navy Department Uniform Board issued a change for the official design of NAP wings. That change called for adding a series of "small feathers" in the upper shoulder area of the badge. Manufactures were expected to comply with that order and they did but I don’t know of any that adding the small feathers in the upper shoulder the way Robbins did. Instead, the other manufactures added what looks more like a cluster of “berries” or “dots” in that area. 4. Exactly when Robbins released their redesigned badge in WWII is open to question but two things are certain. Their new badges were in exact compliance with the Navy Department Uniform Board order. They had the “small feathers” in the upper shoulder area, and they also sported a modern type “hook-under, then lock” device on the back. To sum it up, the identical wings that you, Terry, Patrick and me have posted on this thread are definitely WWII pattern wings made by Robbins.. Having said or repeated all that, how does one explain why the silver NAP style Robbins wing shown in post #15 can be identical to the World War II style wing also shown in post #15? Yes, based on official records, silver NAP style wings were only issued to Naval Aviation Observer's (NAO) between January 1927 and October 1929. Well, I don’t have an iron-clad explanation for that riddle. I have an idea but it is useless if not eventually confirmed by solid research. In October 1929 the Navy may have made an exception to allow the “old salts” who were qualified to wear silver NAP style, also called NAO 2nd style, wings prior to October 1929. Consequently, rather than make those men turn in or discard their original silver 2nd style wings, they allowed those men to continue wearing their original wings as long as they remained in the Navy. In considering of that, you can be sure that a number of those “old salts” did remain in the Navy throughout World War II, and during WWII if they ever wanted an up-to-date NAP style wing in silver they could get one from Robbins. Is it possible the Robbin's Company introduced this wing design in the 1920's, then only made a few modest changes in the pin and catch assembly as they progressed into the WWII era? If Robbins really had introduced that design in the 1920s, it would not be out of the realm of possibility because most if not all manufactures saved their old dies. Below is a comparison shot of a WWI era Robbins NAP wing without feathers in the shoulder (top) and the later NAP wing with unique feathers (bottom). Note the similarities in the hallmark...and the back of the wings, including curvature, are nearly identical. That wing on top of post #21 is not a WWI era Robbins wing. If it were a WWI era Robbins wing it would have an early, three image Robbins trade-mark stamped on the back (see below). It should also have a “lever lock” device, often called a “Tiffany-style C” catch. Kind regards, Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 20, 2010 Share #35 Posted October 20, 2010 I've got one more example which might be of interest to some of you. In 1991, during the early days of the first Gulf War, the Elebash Jewelry Store in Pensacola, Florida, began receiving requests for high quality gold US Naval Aviator wings which could be presented to loved ones in the Navy as gifts. According to a store employee I spoke with, Elebash has been around since 1919 and had a history of providing fine gold and silver wings and insignia to flying personnel stationed locally. When it was apparent there was a renewed market for quality aviator wings, Elebash approached the Robbins Company and ordered up a "limited quantity" of 10 Karat flight badges. Ironically, the Robbins Company produced the order of new wings using the same wing pattern depicted in Terry's original posting. Robbins hallmarked each wing with a small "r", then Elebash inscribed their own identifier into the back of the wings. So, apparently the original dies were still in the hands of the Robbins Co. in 1991. Here's a couple of pictures of an "Elebash" ordered NAP wing. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 20, 2010 Share #36 Posted October 20, 2010 Back of the "Elebash" ordered wing. Note the small "r" hallmark...and the extra long studs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 20, 2010 Share #37 Posted October 20, 2010 Cliff, thank you for the continued effort in sharing your insight into the true history of these wings. Don't give up on me...much of this is actually sinking in! Here's a close up view of the 1991 Robbins Co. "r" hallmark. It's rather cheap and non-descript compared the flying "R" and their earlier hallmarks. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted October 21, 2010 Share #38 Posted October 21, 2010 I've got one more example which might be of interest to some of you. In 1991, during the early days of the first Gulf War, the Elebash Jewelry Store in Pensacola, Florida, began receiving requests for high quality gold US Naval Aviator wings which could be presented to loved ones in the Navy as gifts. According to a store employee I spoke with, Elebash has been around since 1919 and had a history of providing fine gold and silver wings and insignia to flying personnel stationed locally. When it was apparent there was a renewed market for quality aviator wings, Elebash approached the Robbins Company and ordered up a "limited quantity" of 10 Karat flight badges. Ironically, the Robbins Company produced the order of new wings using the same wing pattern depicted in Terry's original posting. Robbins hallmarked each wing with a small "r", then Elebash inscribed their own identifier into the back of the wings. So, apparently the original dies were still in the hands of the Robbins Co. in 1991. Here's a couple of pictures of an "Elebash" ordered NAP wing. Russ Hi Russ, As some of us might say down here in Dixie, "Well shut my mouth and call me Bubba!" Almost 50 years after the fact and they still had the dies. I think that is a terrific story. Thank you for sharing. Cliff :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 21, 2010 Share #39 Posted October 21, 2010 The Elebash Jewelry Store employee I spoke with said the wing I have illustrated above, was most likely their floor sample nineteen years ago. The wings sold to customers did not have the "Pensacola, Florida" inscription because that space was normally reserved for the recipients name or personal inscription. Elebash still sells top quality full size NAP wings today, but they are made by the "Stang Company" and are "14 Karat" marked. They sell for $845.00 a piece. (Christmas is just around the corner!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted October 22, 2011 Share #40 Posted October 22, 2011 Back of the "Elebash" ordered wing. Note the small "r" hallmark...and the extra long studs. Here is a set of 1.5" 1920's-30's Robbins wings made for Elebash with an Elebash's hallmark. They were converted to a tie tack. They are marked " Elebash's Pensacola , Sterling ". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KASTAUFFER Posted October 22, 2011 Share #41 Posted October 22, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted October 27, 2011 Share #42 Posted October 27, 2011 I must disagree that NAPs ever wore silver wings. I was of the belief that they did since Russ Huff's "Wings & Things" started coming out some years ago. I live near P'cola and volunteer at NNAM. Over the years I have been privilidged to meet quite a few of the Silver Eagles. I've attended their re- unions and done oral histories with them. One of the questions I always ask is about the silver wings. To a man they tell me there was never such a thing. and I've asked well over 100. Some were winged in the '20s and 30s. Of course these guys are no longer with us. I am convinced the NAP silver wing is a myth that grew out of the silver dolphins for enlisted submariners and reinforced by the name "Silver Eagles" for the NAP Association. I would just add that quite a few young aviators that were recently winged did so with Joe *************** replica wings. They chose the vaulted shield design from the '30s. It was really cool to watch their wives pin them on choker whites. Gave me goosebumps. Wings & Things on Barrancus sells repro vintage navy wings cast by a fellow on Gulf Breeze. A couple of years ago a whole class was winged with them. I wasn't there for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustywings Posted October 27, 2011 Share #43 Posted October 27, 2011 Hello Owen, I think most of us will agree with you that NAP's never did wear silver wings. But there's strong evidence NAO's (Naval Aviator Observers) did wear silver wings for a short period from January 1927 thru October 1929. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted October 27, 2011 Share #44 Posted October 27, 2011 I must disagree that NAPs ever wore silver wings. Hello Owen, I think most of us will agree with you that NAP's never did wear silver wings. But there's strong evidence NAO's (Naval Aviator Observers) did wear silver wings for a short period from January 1927 thru October 1929. Russ Hello Owen, Russ is correct and I'm fairly certain that no where in this thread did any one ever say that NAP's wore silver wings; however, to be more precise, what was said in Post 22 is that a 26 January 1927 change to the 1922 Uniform Regulations (Change Number 3) modified the Naval Aviation Observer (NAO) wing design and changed it to have the same duel wing insignia worn by NAP's except that it was to be in silver rather than gold. That change stayed in effect until 19 October 1929 with the release of Bureau of Navigation Circular Letter 71-29 (Change Number 7 to the 1922 Uniform Regulations) in which it directed another change be made to NAO wings. That change said that the new design would have duel wings in gold, the same as for Naval Aviator wings, but that the center device would be a large "O" with an erect plain anchor inside the "O" and that both would be in silver. Cliff ..........................Naval Aviation Observer (NAO) wing designs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted October 28, 2011 Share #45 Posted October 28, 2011 I may well have misinterpreted the text. And I completely concur with observers wearing a silver version in the '20s. I ha ve a couple in my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin B. Posted October 29, 2011 Share #46 Posted October 29, 2011 In October 1929 the Navy may have made an exception to allow the “old salts” who were qualified to wear silver NAP style, also called NAO 2nd style, wings prior to October 1929. Consequently, rather than make those men turn in or discard their original silver 2nd style wings, they allowed those men to continue wearing their original wings as long as they remained in the Navy. In considering of that, you can be sure that a number of those “old salts” did remain in the Navy throughout World War II, and during WWII if they ever wanted an up-to-date NAP style wing in silver they could get one from Robbins. Certainly sounds plausible, but I still get the feeling the silver NA-style should be less common, if that's all they were made for. As many here know, the aviation observer program in the late '20s was used largely to get senior officers qualified after legislation of 1927 specified that only naval aviators or aviation observers could take command of aviation units. The overwhelming emphasis of naval air training at that point was to crank out pilots. Looking through the Navy Registers of 1928 and '29, I can find less than two dozen officers listed as qualified NAOs: RADMs Henry V. Butler William A. Moffett Joseph M. Reeves Frank B. Upham Harry E. Yarnell CAPTs Frank D. Berrien Stafford H. R. Doyle Walter R. Gherardi John Halligan Frederick J. Horne Edward S. Jackson CDRs Sydney M. Kraus Raymond G. Thomas LCDRs Robert M. Griffen Charles G. McCord Zeno W. Wicks LTs Herbert C. Behner John G. Jones Timothy J. O'Brien I may have missed a few, and there may have been some enlisted, but there are also photo examples of officers who were NAO-qualified in '27-'29 wearing the 3rd style NAO wings later on. Admirals Moffett, Horne and Butler, for example. The replacement of the Type 2 NAO wings with the Type 3 after such a short time seems to me like a conscious effort was made to make the insignia more visually distinct from the NA/NAP wings, and I wouldn't be surprised if wearers were "encouraged" to get the new model. I can't help but wonder if many of the WW2-period silver NA-style wings are just one of those examples we sometimes encounter of a manufacturer making a non-regulation item for reasons that are now obscure. I will try and research this subject further. Thanks to all the above for an informative thread, Justin B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted November 6, 2011 Share #47 Posted November 6, 2011 I thought I would add this wing to the thread. It seems to me to be in the spirit of the original wing in post #1. I picked it up a few months ago on ebay. The Meyer Metal mark caught my eye in the listing. I couldn't figure why a WWII looking wing would have that hm, as in my experiance, it is generally only seen on 1920's-1930's era Meyer pieces. Well, once I got the wing in hand, I realized that it has the same small feathers that Cliff discussed earlier.(Couldn't see them in the poor quality pic on ebay). Also, the wing sports the reverse, raised meyer shield which I have on a number of pieces. I think this may be a seldom seen pattern by Meyer that must have been produced in very small numbers right after the reg's changed, as Cliff mentioned, and before the Meyer wings with "berries" were produced. Best, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted November 6, 2011 Share #48 Posted November 6, 2011 Back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-17Guy Posted November 6, 2011 Share #49 Posted November 6, 2011 Here is the wing with a standard WWII Meyer wing with "berries". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffP Posted February 16, 2013 Share #50 Posted February 16, 2013 Pictured below is a photograph of the first ten USN enlisted pilot trainees who were selected to begin 18-months training at Pensacola, FL beginning on January 1, 1916. These ten were from the crew of the USS North Carolina. The picture was taken on March 21, 1917. Unfortunately, the name of these ten men have never been confirmed. The second class entered pilot training in June, 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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