brian c Posted June 3, 2014 #1 Posted June 3, 2014 Hi All Wonder if anyone can tell me how to tell the difference with regards fakes of this badge?? Ive noticed there are lots around, so would like to know if theres any difference in style with regards the era of the badge?? also, what markings on the reverse can one hope to see?? Ive recently received a few from the States, most have a double Digit number on the reverse but I also have one that has 2 small symbols?? Any Help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Brian
Rakkasan187 Posted June 3, 2014 #2 Posted June 3, 2014 Brian, Welcome to the forum. Pictures will be a great help in assisting in determining what you have. From what you are describing, it sounds as if the you have some Special Forces DUI's and they are hallmarked on the back with a manufacturers number and marking. depending on the number and hallmark it can then be determined who made them and when. Leigh
brian c Posted June 3, 2014 Author #3 Posted June 3, 2014 hi Leigh Thanks for the reply, attached is a picture of the first one, silver grip on the knife handle and it has 2 small shields on the reverse, too small to make out. thanks Brian
B229 Posted June 3, 2014 #4 Posted June 3, 2014 They look like N.S. Meyer hallmarks, but the pics are too small to really tell much. Since these are Distinctive Insignia and not hat badges, you'll probably get a lot more feedback by posting in the correct section of the forum: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/forum/1525-distinctive-unit-insignia-unit-crests/
Rakkasan187 Posted June 4, 2014 #5 Posted June 4, 2014 Brian, The DUI's were made by NS Meyer Company. This is a nice looking example.. Leigh
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #6 Posted June 4, 2014 I can give you information on what I know which might be helpful. There are two different major styles of two piece SF beret badges one older and the current badge pictured below. The first one is the most sought after and sometimes referred to as the kissing skulls due to the upper part of what they call the harp (ribbon background) with the two holes as eyes and they look like two skulls profiles facing one another. These sell for ridiculous prices and they usually have a single number and letter combination hallmark as they are the older style enlisted Special Forces beret badge. The bayonet on the early badges doesn't look anything like the V42 bayonet carried by the WW2 era First Special Forces it is supposed to represent which was corrected on the current badges. The middle badge I'm not sure about as it uses the bayonet & crossed arrows of the early badge soldered on the current harp or ribbon background. This could be a transition badge or it could be left over bayonet & crossed arrows pieces that they didn't want to waste and soldered them onto the new ribbon background after running out of the older ribbon (kissing skulls) background. However I've never come across these transitional badges with a hallmark so they could have been made up for the collector's marked. Anyone know for sure?
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #7 Posted June 4, 2014 Because the early SF beret badges command such high prices I've seen two reproductions. One is cast from real sterling and the other one is marked R85 (Reproduction 1985). Where you might get in trouble with these is if it is on a beret where they bend the rear pins towards themselves so you can't see the back unless you try and bend the pins back which usually causes them to break.
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #8 Posted June 4, 2014 Here is a photo of the reproduction cast piece. Now there was a legitimate sand cast piece made during the South Vietnamese War which is highly sought after (see photos). I haven't come across one of these being copied yet. However the SVN made beer can beret badge has been copied.
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #9 Posted June 4, 2014 Here is in my opinion a copy of the SVN era SF beret badge.
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #10 Posted June 4, 2014 Here is an original SVN made beer can SF beret badge.
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #11 Posted June 4, 2014 I would stay clear of the SF beret badges where something like numbers or skulls have been added as they are at best novelty pieces.
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #12 Posted June 4, 2014 Here is something a little puzzling that maybe somebody else might have other information about. Here is a current N.S. Meyer beret badge which is a little older than your badge in that I think (not sure) the company has gone overseas to have their insignia made to save money which is why they are different. The 22 over M in the little shield is correct for this era NS Meyer beret badge. However the earlier style SF beret badge also has the 22 over M in the little shield. It should have the early hallmark of 9 over M in a little shield. I don't know when they transitioned from the earlier style beret badge to the current style beret badge. So is it a reproduction or did the company simply use older stock that hadn't been depleted yet or they just came across in a box of parts but had already transitioned over to the newer hallmark? So what about the unmarked early style beret badges? Are they period or could they have been put together from old parts?
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #13 Posted June 4, 2014 I brought up US insignia companies having their stuff made overseas to save money. I've come across a number of either unmarked or G23 (Ira Greene Company) hallmarked SF beret badges that are being sold on eBay out of Communist China. Some say they are reproductions but I feel that they are either overruns or ordered by individuals from the company in China who made them for the Ira Greene Company and other US insignia companies. I've listed the sellers and links to these badges below: Hong Kong Unmarked - 51army http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-SPECIAL-FORCE-SF-HAT-MOTTO-METAL-BADGE-DE-OPPRESSO-LIBE-PIN-/121337122799?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c40418fef China G23 - jackeric2012 http://www.ebay.com/sch/jackeric2012/m.html?item=181370772329&hash=item2a3a8a5b69&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 Chinas G23 - combatant80517 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-US-ARMY-SPECIAL-FORCES-SF-HAT-PIN-MOTTO-METAL-BADGE-CREST-DUI-BERET-BADGE-/261479291104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce16158e0 G23 CHINA - zzwh_0914 http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-US-ARMY-SPECIAL-FORCES-SF-HAT-PIN-MOTTO-METAL-BADGE-CREST-DUI-BERET-BADGE-/321405058974?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad53bff9e CHINA Unmarked skyarmy http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-SPECIAL-FORCES-SF-HAT-PIN-MOTTO-METAL-BADGE-DE-OPPRESSO-LIBE-PINS-SINGLE-/191070160312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7cab45b8 CHINA G23 - ericjack2012 http://www.ebay.com/itm/beautiful-US-SPECIAL-FORCES-SF-HAT-MOTTO-METAL-BADGE-DE-OPPRESSO-LIBE-PIN-S38-/330881698279?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0a1609e7
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #14 Posted June 4, 2014 Here is an odd ball badge with an elongated V42 bayonet that is hallmarked Military World. A friend of mine who was with the 1st Ranger Battalion saw this elongated V42 beret badge on a 7th SF Grp flash that was inside of what looked like a legitimate display inside of a military building. The irregular shinny finish back usually means reproduction as well as the pin which have the secondary tiny pin protrusion at it's base. Anyone know for sure?
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #15 Posted June 4, 2014 I've come across two slight variations of the current style SF beret badge. I've come across SF berets in the past where the V42 bayonet and crossed arrows had come off and was missing from the harp due to rough wear I'm guessing. I think some of the companies (G23 pre-Communist China) have modified the ribbon background or harp for a stronger solder by not enameling the entire length of the harp or ribbon background. They have eliminated the black enameling underneath the solder points where the crossed arrows and V42 bayonet sit. The crossed arrows and V42 bayonets are also slightly different (see photos) between the G23 and D22 (Denmark Company). .
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #16 Posted June 4, 2014 I'm not sure but I believe these one piece current style SF beret badges may be reproductions. I would image if a SF soldier attached one of these to the flash of his beret no one would notice the difference but I'm not sure they are official issue pieces or replacement pieces you can buy at the PX. Does anyone know for sure?
Tonomachi Posted June 4, 2014 #18 Posted June 4, 2014 There are also foreign Special Forces that have copied the US SF beret badge which might explain this piece that I have as unidentified. So if you stick with the two piece hallmarked SF beret badges you probably can't go wrong.
Rakkasan187 Posted June 4, 2014 #19 Posted June 4, 2014 Tonomachi, You are a exemplary example of the fine people of this forum. You have gone well above and beyond and have provided some stunning information and research to a topic that I must admit I am not very knowledgable about. I collect DUI's, mostly infantry so Special Forces is out of my area of expertise, and that is why I could only offer a little information to the member who had asked the question. You have stepped up to the plate and helped out a new member and for this you have my thanks for helping this topic move forward. Thank you again for your input.. Leigh
brian c Posted June 5, 2014 Author #20 Posted June 5, 2014 Guys Thanks very much for the insight you have given me with regards these badges, Tonomachi you are a mind of information, thanks very much, didnt realise there was so much going on with this badge. With regards to the badge i first posted, what era would you say this came from?? also, regards the " Kissing Skulls " badge, how hard would it be to aquire one and what sort of a price would one be looking at?? Thanks again for the info, really appreciated, this has certainly given me some knowledge as to what to look for in future collecting. cheers Brian
Tonomachi Posted June 5, 2014 #21 Posted June 5, 2014 You are welcome. The kissing skull early SF beret badge I've seen sell for 100 dollars on eBay in 2013 which I thought was way over priced as I used to find them for 10 to 20 dollars however I've been collecting these for a long time now so boy have they gone up in price. They pop up for sale on eBay every now and then. I would try for the hallmarked ones with the single number and single letter combination but they will be pricey as a lot of other collectors are looking for them. I found one last year at the flea marked for 5 dollars as it was on a beat up wooden name plate that SF NCOs had on the front of their desks. Your NS Meyer (22 over M) SF beret badge looks like it was made in Communist China. A number of different US insignia companies have been getting their stuff manufactured in Communist China now for the past couple of years to save money as everyone knows labor is a lot cheaper over there. There is another legitimate cast enlisted SF beret badge that will eventually be highly sought after but I decided not to post a photograph due to the people who read the forum just to make copies and rip people off. These were cast for members of a 10th SF Group ODA training indigenous troops in Africa circa 2007.
brian c Posted June 5, 2014 Author #22 Posted June 5, 2014 Many Thanks Tonomachi, Guess i'll have to keep my eyes open for the Kissing Skulls, I'm hoping to get a nice collection together of these badges so youve been a great help. How would one know a Nam era badge?? sorry for the questions but I've absolutely no idea with just starting out on These, so trying to get as much info as possible ( dont worry, I wont be making any ), just a passionate collector. Wish I had read your reply's before going onto Ebay last night, unfortunately I bought some numbered badges ( i.e 5th and 7th on the front ), now i know theyre fantasy peices but not a great deal of money spent so no harm done. All the best Brian
e19 Posted June 5, 2014 #23 Posted June 5, 2014 You are welcome. The kissing skull early SF beret badge I've seen sell for 100 dollars on eBay in 2013 which I thought was way over priced as I used to find them for 10 to 20 dollars however I've been collecting these for a long time now so boy have they gone up in price. They pop up for sale on eBay every now and then. I would try for the hallmarked ones with the single number and single letter combination but they will be pricey as a lot of other collectors are looking for them. I found one last year at the flea marked for 5 dollars as it was on a beat up wooden name plate that SF NCOs had on the front of their desks. Your NS Meyer (22 over M) SF beret badge looks like it was made in Communist China. A number of different US insignia companies have been getting their stuff manufactured in Communist China now for the past couple of years to save money as everyone knows labor is a lot cheaper over there. There is another legitimate cast enlisted SF beret badge that will eventually be highly sought after but I decided not to post a photograph due to the people who read the forum just to make copies and rip people off. These were cast for members of a 10th SF Group ODA training indigenous troops in Africa circa 2007. So, what is your opinion of un-hallmarked "skull' DUIs?
e19 Posted June 5, 2014 #24 Posted June 5, 2014 I've come across two slight variations of the current style SF beret badge. I've come across SF berets in the past where the V42 bayonet and crossed arrows had come off and was missing from the harp due to rough wear I'm guessing. I think some of the companies (G23 pre-Communist China) have modified the ribbon background or harp for a stronger solder by not enameling the entire length of the harp or ribbon background. They have eliminated the black enameling underneath the solder points where the crossed arrows and V42 bayonet sit. The crossed arrows and V42 bayonets are also slightly different (see photos) between the G23 and D22 (Denmark Company). . Every DUI (except skull type) I have (issued to me) from the mid '60s is similar to the G23 shown in your pics. Mine all have black enamel in the dagger handle. The areas where the dagger and arrows are solder to are actually lower than the silver border surrounding the enameled areas. BTW: Your pics make the DUI look wider/rounder, than any I have,...it must be the lens.
Tonomachi Posted June 5, 2014 #25 Posted June 5, 2014 brian c - I would say that both the early kissing skull hallmarked SF beret badges as well as the ones with the two digit single letter beret badges made in the US could have been worn during the SVN War. Of course the ones that have that highly polished finish with the same single digit and single letter combination hallmark were made in Communist China and were not worn during the war. You are not going to absolutely be sure unless it is on a dated beret or it is either the beer can or sand cast variety that were made during the war. e19 - The badge below is probably legitimate from the period and I'm just over analyzing things but I would be more comfortable with one of the hallmarked pieces. I say this because years back I was and am still searching for variations of the short lived US Air Force paratrooper badges that look like DIs. They were made by a number of different manufactures in basic, senior and master grades. They were getting very expensive when you found them and all of a sudden a complete set popped up which did not have any hallmarks. They turned out to be reproductions so that is why I'm not sure about this badge and you have what I call the transition SF beret badge with the older V42 bayonet and crossed arrows on the current harp which I've never seen with a hallmark.
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