Jump to content

Unknown 30th Inf guidon. Assistance with ID?


mmerc20

Recommended Posts

I am posting this for another member right now who can't access USMF at the moment. He is inventorying/cataloging the items held by the NC historian and came across this guidon. It is obviously from the 30th Inf but not sure the age or what the red diagonal signifies. Could it have something to do with armor? It is identical on both sides with no other markings. Any idea of origin or age? Seen something similar before?

 

Mike

post-3373-0-61611700-1394552972.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

It has nothing to do with the 30th Infantry, which is Regular Army regiment, and I don't see any evidence it has anything to do with the 30th Division/Brigade, which is probably what you meant. That guidon combination of solid color with secondary color bend is for groups, and the colors are based on the branch of the group. Red and white are the branch colors of Engineers. I see there is a 30th Engineer Brigade in the NCARNG, but I don't know if they were ever a Group. The 30th Eng Bn, another Regular Army unit, was the 30th Eng Gp (Topo Survey) from 1954-58 before going back to being a battalion, but that's probably not it. Beyond that, I don't know.

Link to post
Share on other sites
ocsfollowme

Armor is usually half and half red and white. At least our armor squadron was in our brigade, with the top half being red.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Armor is usually half and half red and white. At least our armor squadron was in our brigade, with the top half being red.

 

Red over white is Cavalry, including armored Cavalry. Armor is a yellow guidon with green BOS and green letters/numbers. Your brigade had a Cavalry squadron.

Link to post
Share on other sites
ocsfollowme

I stand corrected, you are right!

 

Red over white is Cavalry, including armored Cavalry. Armor is a yellow guidon with green BOS and green letters/numbers. Your brigade had a Cavalry squadron.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This flag was in with a bunch of items belonging to LTG Claud Bowers, former Adjutant General of the NCARNG. He was in the 30th Division in WWI and WWII. Someone had said that it was his vehicle flag at some point, but it's obviously not that type of flag. Another said it was flown at the shooting range when he was present, but that sounds dubious as well.

There is no information in the sleeve that would help identify or date it.

G

Link to post
Share on other sites

This flag was in with a bunch of items belonging to LTG Claud Bowers, former Adjutant General of the NCARNG. He was in the 30th Division in WWI and WWII. Someone had said that it was his vehicle flag at some point, but it's obviously not that type of flag. Another said it was flown at the shooting range when he was present, but that sounds dubious as well.

There is no information in the sleeve that would help identify or date it.

G

 

It's definitely none of those things. Assuming it is actually red and white, then it would be for the 30th Engineer Group. No idea how that corresponds to LTG Bowers or the NC Guard.

 

Here's the reference to Group guidons at IOH, FYI: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/Heraldry.aspx?HeraldryId=15778&CategoryId=9185&grp=2&menu=Uniformed Services&ps=24&p=0

Link to post
Share on other sites
ocsfollowme

Wherever a general goes, his/her star flag goes with him/her--which would have the appropriate number of stars on it with the red background.

 

I did a search for "red and white guidon" and did not see anything similar.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's definitely none of those things. Assuming it is actually red and white, then it would be for the 30th Engineer Group. No idea how that corresponds to LTG Bowers or the NC Guard.

 

Here's the reference to Group guidons at IOH, FYI: http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Catalog/Heraldry.aspx?HeraldryId=15778&CategoryId=9185&grp=2&menu=Uniformed Services&ps=24&p=0

B229 good id on the guidon, diffentely a Group.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, if it is red and WHITE, it is a GUIDON for a Company-sized unit, i.e. HHC of a 30th Eng Gp. However, it may be BUFF and red, which is teh color scheme used for SUPPORT units, so maybe it is for HQ of the 30th Inf/Armd Div DISCOM (Div Spt Comd).

 

Also, especially when it gets down to "funny" units, the regs have changed at least once since WWII/KW. So training and branch-immaterial outfits have wandered around a bit before settling down in the last 25-30 years.

 

BTW Cav guidons are split red over white not because of BOS colors. They were first adopted, in this scheme, well before the Civil War (maybe before the Mex War) and the colors were meant for VISIBILTY (through dust and atmospherics), one color light one dark. IIRC that scheme was copied from the British SOP. Pre-1855, "Cavalry" consisted of three RA Regts: the 1st and 2nd DRAGOONs, BOSC ORANGE); and 3rd MOUNTED RIFLES (BOSC GREEN). In 1855 a fourth was activated -- the 1st CAVALRY (BOSC golden yellow); in 1861 all four were designated "Cavalry" and the new (1855) 1st became the 4th. By 1861, all four were using golden yellow.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

I was able to locate some files in the NCARNG archives that indicate this guidon belonged to HHC, 30th Engineer Group (Topographic Survey). This unit has undergone numerous reorganizations and redesignations over the years. This particular designation covered 15 Dec. 1954 - 23 June 1958.

Thank you to everyone that provided feedback for me.

G

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.