dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Share #1 Posted January 17, 2012 I don't believe there has been an exhaustive look into the background of USMC 6 pointed star buttons. THe only information I have come up with is that early on the USMC used a six pointed star for its insignia which was later changed to a 5 pointed star. Can any of the Forum members shed light on when this change took place? I'm posting all the 6 pointed star buttons I have come across. Perhaps the back marking/shank attachment can shed some light on dates. Below is a 1" blank backmark. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #2 Posted January 17, 2012 Below is a 11/16th Horstmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #3 Posted January 17, 2012 below is a 1" waterbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #4 Posted January 17, 2012 below is a 11/16" waterbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #5 Posted January 17, 2012 below is a 1" horstmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #6 Posted January 17, 2012 below a 1 1/8" Horstmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #7 Posted January 17, 2012 another 11/16 waterbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #8 Posted January 17, 2012 and another 11/16" waterbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #9 Posted January 17, 2012 and an 11/16th Superior Quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #10 Posted January 17, 2012 another 11/16" waterbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #11 Posted January 17, 2012 I hope these photos are enough to get some discussion going and possibly determine the time period when the six pointed star was used. If this thread takes off I'll photograph more buttons (CHAS. RUBEN & Co. CHICAGO, SUPERIOR QUALITY Co., etc.) all from officer' coats. Cheers, BIll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dag Posted January 17, 2012 Share #12 Posted January 17, 2012 The best reference book on military uniform buttons is Record of American Uniform And Historical Buttons, by Alphaeus H. Albert. The section on Marine buttons in this book lists some 16 distinctly different versions of the button, dating back to the first Marine buttons after 1821 (when an order prescribed the new Marine button similar to the device used today, prior to this, Marine officers wore Navy buttons). Throughout these various versions, there are some 5-point stars and 6-point stars being made at the same time. Even for several versions that date to the Civil War era, there were both 5 & 6 point stars, sometimes different manufacturers, sometimes the same manufacturer, just different dies. Note that the 1821 regulation (at least as described in the book referenced above) does not describe the stars - it does not specify 5 or 6 point, just states "Thirteen stars in an arc above,...". As with so many other US military buttons over the years (and I've collected US military buttons for over 20 years), that is one thing that is very inconsistant. I've seen this for Navy buttons as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted January 17, 2012 Share #13 Posted January 17, 2012 Pleased to see Dave, our residence authority on button comment. This is a perplexing topic. Col Driscoll's work on the topic of EGA's mentioned the date of 1804 (in correspondence) a time when the first eagle and six point stars are mentioned in terms of use. Mr Smith who authored the Marine in the Revolution, also indicates the eagle & fouled anchors use on buttons took place in 1804. http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/D...19000317900.pdf This info is repeated in several USMC publications However, this information is contradicted by Albert and other noted button collectors / authors. Anchors first appeared on buttons of Marine officer uniforms during the American Revolution. These featured the eagle, with a shield on the left wing, enclosing a fouled anchor (I believe these were Marine Officer buttons - as the Naval Officer button was not a fouled anchor). This became the basis of what is now known as the 'Marine button.' On 26 October 1798, the button's prescribed use was extended to enlisted men. During the French Naval War (1798-1801), the undress uniform of officers was a plain blue flock coat with buttons on the lapels. George Harrison's letter to Commandant Warton on 12 October 1804 stated, "Armitages" die is worn out and he is about to have another executed, he wishes your order as to the button you will prefer. Enclosed are patterns for your selection....he is of the opinion that you had better do away with stars and have an anchor on the button." In his reply of 19 October 1804, Warton says, "It will be out of my department to make an alteration in the buttons. Please order them to be the former (Navy) pattern." Research indicates naval buttons were used as late as 15 May 1821. However, an order dated 3 August 1821 prescribes Marine buttons for officers. The device is practically the same as in use today. One observation I have made over time - these modern era (20th century) six point stars were only made by (not positive) Horstmann and Waterbury buttons - the other big Button makers of the era, Scoville - Steel & Johnson did not. Nor have I observed Horstmann or Waterbury using the six point stars on the buttons they made for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dag Posted January 17, 2012 Share #14 Posted January 17, 2012 I've seen several cases of conflicting information in different sources like this. Seems like the very early records on the subject were scarce or non-existant, and sometimes conflicting. As teufelhunde.ret stated, seemed like certain manufacturers liked the 6-point stars, others the 5-point star. This meant that both versions existed at the same time from the early years of the Marine (and Navy) buttons through at least the early 20th century, maybe even later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #15 Posted January 17, 2012 Here's another, no back marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #16 Posted January 17, 2012 Here's a 11/16" Chas. Reuben & Co Chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #17 Posted January 17, 2012 Here's a Superior Quality Co. 11/16" button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #18 Posted January 17, 2012 All the buttons I have posted on this thread are 'pillow' or domed buttons. All have soldered shanks. All are made of brass as opposed to bronze. Some have had the shanks bent over, or hammered in to the center of the back, turning a domed back convex. Some had convex back to begin with. Some observations: - All of my WW1 US uniforms have buttons with the backing painted or 'japan lacquered'. The only exceptions are those that are French made. These buttons have raw brass or steel backing. However, some French button backings are 'japan lacquered'. - Most WW1 US uniform buttons have had the shanks bent or hammered into the backing. The only exception are those buttons which have convex backing. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share #19 Posted January 17, 2012 One observation I have made over time - these modern era (20th century) six point stars were only made by (not positive) Horstmann and Waterbury buttons - the other big Button makers of the era, Scoville - Steel & Johnson did not. Nor have I observed Horstmann or Waterbury using the six point stars on the buttons they made for others. I am wondering if the 6 pointed star buttons were private purchase, officer quality. I've never seen 'flat' USMC buttons with 6 pointed stars, only 'pillow' or domed ones. Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted January 17, 2012 Share #20 Posted January 17, 2012 I am wondering if the 6 pointed star buttons were private purchase, officer quality. I've never seen 'flat' USMC buttons with 6 pointed stars, only 'pillow' or domed ones. Cheers, Bill Officer's uniforms have always been private purchase, so it depends on the outfitter as to who's buttons are used in making the uniform. As to flat buttons in six-star, here is one from Scovills dating to 1840-1850 based on backmark design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutchbarge Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share #21 Posted January 18, 2012 The best reference book on military uniform buttons is Record of American Uniform And Historical Buttons, by Alphaeus H. Albert. The section on Marine buttons in this book lists some 16 distinctly different versions of the button, dating back to the first Marine buttons after 1821 (when an order prescribed the new Marine button similar to the device used today, prior to this, Marine officers wore Navy buttons). Throughout these various versions, there are some 5-point stars and 6-point stars being made at the same time. Even for several versions that date to the Civil War era, there were both 5 & 6 point stars, sometimes different manufacturers, sometimes the same manufacturer, just different dies. Note that the 1821 regulation (at least as described in the book referenced above) does not describe the stars - it does not specify 5 or 6 point, just states "Thirteen stars in an arc above,...". As with so many other US military buttons over the years (and I've collected US military buttons for over 20 years), that is one thing that is very inconsistant. I've seen this for Navy buttons as well. Very interesting. Thanks for your insights. Any chance of scanning and posting the pages of USMC buttons? Cheers, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teufelhunde.ret Posted January 18, 2012 Share #22 Posted January 18, 2012 Sadly cannot - the book is under current copyrights which prohibit reproduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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