M1 Bayonet dated made from long blank

[Misfit 45]

Hello, This bayonet is a UFH dated M1 made from a long 1905 blank. I didn't even know these existed until a few months ago (thank you Gary). Originally, I thought the long blanks had their markings put on first i.e. UFH, US ordnance bomb, date; then the rest of the blade finished to M1 standards. In other words, I thought these blades were nearly finished, waiting to be made into 1905s. Since then, I have seen other UFH M1s made from long blanks, but without the date. My question is: were these UFH blanks end of production left overs that were already stamped with the date, or were these heated and stamped after the March-April 1943 change over to the shorter M1?

The reason I ask, is because it would be more interesting to me if this M1 was not only made from a long blank, but also have the "mistake" of having it dated. I realize it was not a mistake, but simply something that was no longed mandated (no pun intended). I hope you know what I mean. When was the date put on, before it was made into an M1 or during the process of making it an M1?

Marv

 

 

[bayonetman]

As with so many other operations, etc. the deletion of the date was not mandated to happen on a specific date but was actually simply a part of the change of specifications from the long blade (M1905) to the short blade (M1).

 

The makers simply changed over from date to undated as the new stamping dies were ready. AFH made the change prior to converting to the M1 and undated M1905 AFH bayonets can be found. I have yet to see a dated M1 from AFH.

 

OL, PAL and UC did not have the undated dies ready until M1 production had begun, so dated M1s are found by all of these makers and I have yet to see an undated M1905 by these three makers.

 

UFH is the odd one in all of this. I have heard of a dated true M1 but haven't actually seen one. I have seen undated M1905s, as well as the dated and undated versions such as you have. It appears that UFH was changing their marking dies at just about the same time as they were changing to the M1 bayonet.

 

It APPEARS that UFH had a large number of M1905 forgings on hand at the time of transition in which the basic groove for the fuller / blood groove (technically a fuller but the blood groove name is common and was actually used by some of the makers in their literature) was very shallowly formed during the forging operation. UFH finished them as M1 bayonets by simply bringing the M1 fuller length to depth and leaving the rest shallow. There are also undated M1905s, mostly found shortened.

 

The stamping of the blade marks normally occurred after the fuller was finished, but this was not done at one station for all the bayonets being made, so apparently some of the machines had the old die and some the new die when the stamping was done. This resulted in some being dated and some not depending on which machine did the work. There was no reason to simply change the dies from date to not dated until they wore out.

 

So to answer your question, the mark and date were stamped during the final processes so the bayonet was already an M1 before it was stamped - but some were being made with and without the date at the same time.

 

Here is a family photo.

 

[Misfit 45]

That makes perfect sense and pretty much clears that up. Thanks

Marv

[rrvtcb69]

To Whom can help me with this. Can someone identify this bayonet. I bought this from a friendly guy whos dad passed and he sold it to me. He didnt know too much about it or what to sell to me for. I'm confused about the blade. 1 side the blood groove stops on the opposite it seems to stop at the tip, doesnt keep going. Was this a 16" - Cut Down to 10 or what? Seems to have alot of marks i want to be seeing. Need those GURUS!!!

 

Thanks, Rich 

 

[SKIPH]

Rich- You have a Union Fork & Hoe M1  bayonet. What I find interesting, as you mentioned, is the blade tip. On one side the fuller (blood groove) is full length, the other side is not. Have never seen that before. This was modified from a 16" blade at some point.  The catch is stamped "UC", which stands for Utica Cutlery, the original maker of that part, and probably came from UC bayonets sent in for modification to 10" blades.

[Misfit 45]

That's a nice transitional M1.  This bayonet was made from a long blank.  The evidence for this is the lack of complete fuller on the left side of the blade.  I believe that when the original blank was forged, the fuller was off center.  Most of the UFH cut down blanks have a deep side and a shallow side at the tip.  Yours is an exaggerated example of that. It may be the case that the original blank was forged to an almost finished depth on one side which is why it looks like a regular cut down 1905 E1, but only on one side. 

With the combination of the cut down blank and the lack of the 1943 date, you have a great somewhat scarce variation. 

As you can see in the photos of my dated example, the fuller is deeper on one side than the other at the tip.

Marv

[hyrax222]

UFH hardly made two bayonets the same! LOL!

 

The transitional bayonets are a rabbit-hole! UFH made more variations than any other manufacturer.

 

hyrax222

[rrvtcb69]

Thank you Gents for the info. I'm gonna keep it with my M1 Garand as it looks great. Is it worth a lot of just normal ?

[Misfit 45]

Most dealers at the gun shows don't know the difference between a cut down M1905 and a cut down blank.  Collectors who know the difference will likely pay a small premium for the cut down blank.  However, most of the time, it will be found to be the same price as a regular cut down M1905.  Your bayonet, without the 1943 date is more interesting, but I don't see it commanding much more of a premium either.   hyrax222 may have more insight into the relative value of these great transitional M1s.

Marv

[hyrax222]

I find many more cut-down 16"  dated blank M1 bayonets than cut-down standard 16" dated M1 bayonets. Sort of confusing until you wrap your head  around it.

Most usually the fuller is more prevalant on one side than the other, on the cut down blank M1's.

I would be inclined to pay more for the cut-down standard 16" M1 bayonet...

Auction prices remain the same as most people do not recognize the differences or value one over the other.

The dated, not cut-down M1 is Scarce! Undated cut-down 16" M1 is also.

Keeping this information straight in my head is a challenge!

 

hyrax222

[Frank Trzaska]

I am always amazed at what still turns up. When we think we know it all we see something "NEW' from 60 years ago!