Pal RH36 Question

[islandhopper]

I have always been told that the unparkerized Pal RH36 was an earlier war version and the parked one is a late war version. Does anyone know about what year this transition occured? Is it true?

 

The other question I have is this: Are there any pre-war or post-war made Pal RH36 knives? I thought Pal bought out the knife from Remington during the war so if that is right, then that would mean that there are no pre-war. Are there post war versions?

 

Thank you all.

[bayonetman]

Pal Blade and Tool bought the Remington cutlery tooling and machines in early 1941 - January as I recall. They moved the machines to a building in Holyoke, Mass and were able to begin production of knives by June of 1941. So the RH-36 (Remington Hunting Blade Style 3 Blade Length 6 inches) was in production prior to the beginning of the war.

 

By the spring of 1942 the government established controls on essential materials such as steel and brass, and commercial production of knives essentially came to an end. In order to get materials, most knife companies had to have contracts with the US government or be producing what would be considered an essential civilian product.

 

PAL had production and quality control problems with many of their contracts for bayonets and some of the knife models, mostly due to their fairly new entry into the cutlery field. The USN Mark 1 knife (the RH-35) and the RH-36 were well made as they were already in production and the machinery and tooling did not need to be developed.

 

I have not seen a date for the change from bright to Parkerized, but from existing knives, the Parkerized version seems to be more uncommon. This may mean that the change came late in production, or that when the change was made the demand for this style knife had slowed and fewer were purchased.

 

The War Supply Contract listings (only for larger orders, available from Frank Trzaska at usmilitaryknives.com) does not break down the knives by exact name/models. However, since the RH-36 was ordered by the Quartermaster Corps rather than Ordnance, we can eliminate a lot of the items on the listing. The first large order appears to be in May 1942 and the last likely order was probably about November 1944. All of this to some extent is guesswork, so DON'T take these numbers to the bank. As a GUESS, based on what information is available and another GUESS based on quantities of each style personally viewed, I would say the change took place in 1944 and involved possibly 15 - 20% of the total production.

 

Production did continue post war into the early 1950s. PAL was to some extent a victim of their wartime production, as there were so many knives that came home with servicemen and the flooding of the market with surplus knives disposed of by the Quartermaster Corps after the war. When the machines and tooling began to wear out about 1953, Pal decided to close the knife works and concentrate on razor blades. I don't know how many RH-36s were sold post war, but there was certainly some quantity and as far as I know, there is no way to tell post war from wartime.

[elbertson]

Pal purchased Remington in 1939 and I believe the RH36 may have been an already existing hunting knife model. Like alot of civilian knives during the war, they were "tweaked" as far as the materials they could use to make them, as many materials had higher priority strategic uses. I believe the parkerized model was a later natural progression of this.

 

BTW, I type slow..

[elbertson]

I'm not disputing Gary's purchase date info...I'm using a date Michael Silvey used in a 1996 Knife World article, and other than that I'm not sure of it's accuracy.

[Jack's Son]

I'm not disputing Gary's purchase date info...

Good Call My Friend!!

[bayonetman]

I'm not disputing Gary's purchase date info...I'm using a date Michael Silvey used in a 1996 Knife World article, and other than that I'm not sure of it's accuracy.

 

I am using a date from a website about PAL and from the book Price Guide to Antique Knives by Voyles. I could easily be wrong, but the book seems to be accurate. One quote involves a letter from Remington to its knife distributors, dated Nov. 12, 1940 stating the Remington was discontinuing the cutlery business (page 272). It also states that the last knives were made in 1950 although stocks continued to be sold for some time after that. But I could be wrong too. Lets compromise and say circa 1940?

[Gregory]

PAL had production and quality control problems with many of their contracts for bayonets and some of the knife models, mostly due to their fairly new entry into the cutlery field.

Some time ago I wanted to set up a thread about it.

 

I have always liked the RH-36s and collected them. They were very nice and ergonomic but from mechanical point of view their quality leaves much to be desired. Seeing how much they were manufactured with free fit technology many times I thought they had to be manufactured during WWII by the women or other unqualified personnel. In the other US WWII era military knives I have never seen so loosely fitted guards, pommels and spacers. To my friends I have always told: "Never buy RH-36 in hot Summer". Due to linear expansion they seem to be much better quality then. Entire truth about RH-36 can be seen and heard in Winter when all poorly fitted parts move loosely and clatter.

 

Regards

 

Gregory

[islandhopper]

Gary and all,

 

 

Thank you so much for this information. Cleared up some misconceptions I had. If the knife stayed the same, what about the scabbard? I have seen scabbards that have the belt loop and some that have the belt slots. Some scabbards seem to be marked simply "PAL", some have PAL and then some wording and others are unmarked. Anyone have the dope on this?

 

As always I appreciate all your knowledge and the fact that you share it.

[islandhopper]

Also, did the shape of the guard change at all? Most of the ones that I have seen have a guard with the ends kind of going to a point (looking at it from the tip of the blade or the pummel, it looks kind of like a football). But I seem to remember seeing one that had more of a rounded guard, more in line with a Shark or Ka-Bar. I could be wrong though.

[Gregory]

If the knife stayed the same, what about the scabbard? I have seen scabbards that have the belt loop and some that have the belt slots. Some scabbards seem to be marked simply "PAL", some have PAL and then some wording and others are unmarked. Anyone have the dope on this?

There were two variations of early short (11in), belt slot type left-handed sheaths:

- unstamped

- stamped with eliptical logo and inscription "The Hallmark of Fine Cutlery"

 

The third model of RH-36 sheath was longer (12in), belt loop type, made of harder leather, right-handed and with hole in tip.

 

Also, did the shape of the guard change at all? Most of the ones that I have seen have a guard with the ends kind of going to a point (looking at it from the tip of the blade or the pummel, it looks kind of like a football). But I seem to remember seeing one that had more of a rounded guard, more in line with a Shark or Ka-Bar. I could be wrong though.

Guard shape and length (2 1/16in) were the same in both polished and parkerized variants. Guard thickness was also the same in both variations -- 2.7mm.

[islandhopper]

Wow. Thanks Gregory! Much appreciated.

[Frank Trzaska]

From the actual sales contract...

 

This agreement entered into this 17th day of January, 1941 by and between Remington Arms Company, Inc., a corporation organized and existing under the laws of the State of Delaware, having a principal office at Bridgeport, Connecticut, hereinafter referred to as "the seller" and Joseph L. Mailman, Besse M. Kraus, Otto E. Kraus, Mary Langner, citizens and residents of the State of New York and Abraham L. Mailman, a citizen and resident of Montreal, Canada, all doing business as partners under the firm name of PAL BLADE COMPANY, having a principal office at New York, N.Y., and hereinafter referred to as " the buyer", ...

 

It took quite some time to inventory and transfer the items. The sales price was $325,000.00 for it all. Remington was responsible for warranty repairs and replacement up until the end of 1942. Pal was allowed to use the parts stamped Remington and to make more as required until the end of 1941. They had this extended a few times and were still using Remington made or marked parts well into 1942. It was not a clean cutoff sale and transfer, the letters were exchanged for two years, possibly more but that is where my file ends on the sale.

 

In any case the agreement is dated January 17, 1941.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

[islandhopper]

Frank,

 

So in other words, a Pal marked RH-36 is at least a 1942 made item or later - if I'm reading all this correctly. Thank you.

[Frank Trzaska]

Frank,

 

So in other words, a Pal marked RH-36 is at least a 1942 made item or later - if I'm reading all this correctly. Thank you.

 

No that is not correct. PAL had the rights to the RH36 pattern on January 18th. At that point they could continue to use Remington made parts or make their own. They could use the Remington marked parts or mark their own. They did not have to use Remington only made or marked parts, that was a choice.

 

In reality the PAL RH36 does not look anything like the Remington RH36.

 

As to when the actual change took place I would have to dig out the files and try to narrow it down, it is not at my finger tips at this moment and it is not spelled out precisely.

 

all the best

Frank Trzaska

[islandhopper]

Thank you for the clarification.