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Fantasy, repro or counterfeit EGA's


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#1 cbuehler

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Posted 06 May 2007 - 07:16 PM

I nice recent aquisition. Rather scarce I am led to believe. No makers mark.

Here is part 2 of the saga. Again unmarked,these have the longitude and latitude lines unlike the hat ornament in the other post. Both of these (as well as the cap) appear to be silver plated eagles and globes with gold wash or plated anchors and seperately applied continents. It is not clear in the pics, but there is some minor bubbling to the silver plate on front of one and a bit of green verdegris on the interiors of the globes. This is apparent on the hat ornament as well. The base metal I would assume to be some sort of nickel or white metal of the type used for British cap badges for this verdegris to be present.
This may be more in line with earlier production rather than late. I once had an early 20's officers full dress hat with an early dress EGA that had almost all its silver worn away leaving almost completely gilt appearance. Could British manufacture be a possibility?

CB

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 01 January 2008 - 04:34 AM.


#2 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 07 May 2007 - 08:54 AM

CB, When I first looked, I was stymied by its character and or appearance. Here's my take.....

It is out the 1926 "droopy wing" pattern series starting in 1927 with officer's
The eagle has every appearance of those found upon NS Meyer hallmarked types.
The globe however, is not, consistent with those found in the NS Meyer pieces of the period.
The anchor rope pattern is not consistent with those found in the NS Meyer pieces of the period.

Pending some close-ups of certain features; my take is this is a repro

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 19 December 2007 - 10:59 AM.


#3 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 11:27 AM

OK fellow USMC collectors, I am stymied here. This collar emblem does not have any hallmarks; is not true to a period original, very small spinner and extra long stud as well. Please share your thoughts. Thank you.

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 26 May 2008 - 03:54 AM.


#4 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 11:29 AM

and back...

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#5 Jeremiah

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 03:11 PM

Darrell,
Based on the shape of the eagle, I'd say it's in the Vanguard/H&H/Viking family of emblems. The overall look reminds me of the type worn in the 30s-50s that is mislabled the '26 pattern. Interesting piece, very interesting. Is it magnetic?

Jeremiah

Edit note, could this be a theater made piece...i.e China? That would explain the mix of a hashing on the oceans like a dress emblem and the backwards facing eagle.

Edited by Jeremiah, 08 May 2007 - 03:12 PM.


#6 Brig

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 04:23 PM

the backwards facing eagle is very interesting :o

#7 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 08:30 PM

Darrell,

To me, if you twist his head around and face it the correct way, the eagle has that definite Vanguard look as Jeremiah stated. The eagle and globe appear to be die stamped while the anchor appears to be cast. Am I correct? The extended screw post also looks like something that wouldn't be found on a legitimate emblem. I noticed the bottom tip of S. America overlapping the globe. I don't think that would be something that would escape any of the US makers factories. The roller nut or spinner is also the exact same type that is being sold on the bad fake emblems sold by the eBay seller USNUSA. My honest opinion on this emblem is it's a complete fantasy piece and probably another example of the bad fakes several people are pawning off on eBay. While I would consider it a disappointing fake, it is still scary to see these coming out as partial die stamped emblems. Makes me wonder what's going to come next.
Gary

#8 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 11:24 PM

Well folks, Gary hit it dead on, bull's eye. It is a fake, this counterfeit came from the epay source known as USAUSN. And if you find him there watch the type of "polarized" pic's and vague, yet enticing wording. I had watched him for some time peddle the same stuff.... every few months the identical piece / description would appear. Yup, spent 40. to get this, but worth every penny to see the casting and stamping characteristics. A damn good counterfeit. There are two others doing the same and expect to share their work w/ y'all at some time in future. Gary has alerted me to another potential fake feature in the EGA line, that is going to take some time to sort out... Thanks to all for their comments.

And he's back at it http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

Beware!!!!!!!!!

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 19 December 2007 - 11:06 AM.
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#9 bobgee

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 02:13 PM

Here are some pics of an officer's style droopy wing service emblem that I've owned for a few years. I believe it to be bogus. I bought it from an east coast insignis dealer at an OMSA convention about 6-7 years ago. I kept it as an example. The bird appears to me to be identicle to the dress emblem displayed here. Comments from folks more knowledgeable than me about EGAs will be appreciated.
Semper Fi.....Bob
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#10 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 10 May 2007 - 11:42 PM

Your right in your assumption. Of note is the raised beading about all edges of the anchor; the loosely spun and poorly wrapped (in wrong position) anchor rope and raised edges left from the casting of the continents. I have heard said these were also done as fantasy emblems for associations and reunions; produced in country (China for example) and so forth. My take is simply that these and others have been made to dupe the budding collector. Quite frankly, I have not seen this one before. And I for one thank you for sharing with us.

I look forward to seeing Gary's comments as well http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

ADMIN & MODERATORS: Another reason the forum/moderators need a fake - dupes - counterfeit - fantasy area ( to include hallmarks) in the EGA reference section for officers & enlisted, please. These type of emblems are costing your fellow collectors allot of dollars http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/crying.gif

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 11 May 2007 - 12:05 AM.


#11 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 22 June 2007 - 04:10 PM

One of his ploys is to fool with photography! He also gives wrong measurements, usually suggesting a cover size emblem, when in fact, it will be slightly larger than collar size. If you read the fine print, he will refund your money, minus postage and a rather hefty restocking fee. There is no doubt in my mind that this seller is responsible for many of the cast fakes in EGA's that have been showing up over the past decade, including some of the better made "Gooneys" or "Droop Wings'.

It's my own fault, but right after I got on eBay in 1999 and because he gave measurements on this emblem suggesting large cover size and because he had very small photos, I thought I'd take a chance and see if this emblem was some exotic, before unknown officer's cover emblem. While I consider the $45. win plus hefty postage charges a big burn, it was my own fault! These photos have been enlarged from his originals, but now that many collectors have caught on to his scam, it looks like he has taken a different route with really bad photos. If you notice, nowhere in his listing does he say original. He also won't leave feedback until the buyer does, so that keeps his positive feedback score fairly intact.

BTW - Darrell, this emblem also had the very thin continents loosely tacked to the globe and they run off the globe, just like the one you posted. In hand, it's also poorly cast with many bubbles in the casting.

Gary

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 01 November 2007 - 12:00 PM.
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#12 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 08:09 AM

Sadly these oddities continue to be sold as the real McCoy. Their existence has apparently been peddled for years (perhaps Gary will know?) to unsuspecting collectors... well before the time Internet resources were available.

It has also been portrayed as an emblem presented to returning vet's of WW1 and a gift given to those who attended Association reunions as well.

If you review Orgel's reference, the differences are readily seen. The casting lacks the crispness of a die, the globe is mounted over the emblem stock and reveals a very unorthodox casting ring as well. The use of applied continents were nothing ever seen with the hand-crafted French EGA's produced for Marine Officers. The eagle presents no detailing whatsoever.....

And there are still more varieties of these fantasizes to share with you in the future.

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#13 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 06:12 AM

And haven't we all http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/crying.gif Here's one from my earlier days too. Interesting piece nonetheless. Swept back wings... long & lat lines... chain and so forth. Will have to get the rear of this posted some day. This one usually shows up on epay 3-4x times a year, from the same seller, on a vintage WW1 pisscover. The other seller just sells 'em straight out, without a disclaimer that they are fantasy items.

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#14 themick

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Posted 14 July 2007 - 10:54 AM

Here is another Note the blunted beak on my eagle. Some time ago I had a discussion with Gary on these, and he thought they were reproduction.

Steve

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 02 August 2007 - 10:09 AM.


#15 bobgee

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 09:49 AM

I've had this 3-piece set of Dress EGAs in silver and gilt for quite a while now. Got them from an insignia dealer from the east coast at an OMSA convention. This was pre EBay and I don't know his name but I think he's a seller on EBay now. At the time I thought they were a non-regulation, foreign made set for a Marine to wear on on his liberty uniform back home., maybe by Gaunt. No markings. The hat badge is totally struck with continents and then has unusual continents applied. He had another hat & a single collar at the time but I have never come across another set since. Afterwards, I acquired an almost identicle stamped right collar in gilt marked with the Meyer shield and Meyermetal. Also have another in solid gilt only, un-marked, but better made. I will post them later.

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 10 August 2007 - 10:24 AM.


#16 bobgee

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 09:53 AM

rear...

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 10 August 2007 - 10:30 AM.


#17 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 11:09 AM

Hi Bob Thank you for sharing these with all of us. I find myself in agreement with your original presumption, I do believe these pre-Internet copies. The first issue of course is the silver/gold use on enlisted cap emblems.

The basic design is that of the 1930 cap emblem (and some french variety of the mid-20's), however (I have never seen) in stamped cap emblem, vice cast... is a dead giveaway... COPY. The second element which is wrong in design (horrible) and use, the semi applied continents on enlisted cap emblem... COPY.

Those collar emblems however could pass muster with allot of folks and the tell tail element that clue me is the again silver/gold, semi applied continents, poor casting. I look forward to hearing comments from others. s/f Darrell

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 10 August 2007 - 10:33 AM.


#18 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 10:37 PM

I don't like discussing expensive and/or rare emblems for the obvious reasons. I'll tell you what I know. As far as the officer dress type "Gooneys," they have always been extremely, extremely rare with a few in collector's hands or in the possession of museums. This pattern emblem was very unpopular with Marines in the 1930's because of the "Gooney" looking bird (1st hand account by a living 1930's Marine I know), so I don't believe there was a very big demand for them, especially by officer's who had to purchase their own emblems. In the last decade or so, the exact same emblems Darrell and Steve posted have been showing up with allot more frequency, because, I believe, they are so very rare and they demand huge bucks. Also because there is big demand for them by collectors because of the "China Marine" connection?? I'm still trying to figure out that particular connection, but I guess it's a good selling point on eBay. The emblems in question are good copies, but I don't believe they come close to the originals. A close EGA collecting friend and I discussed these some years ago and noted the obvious flaws and a couple of not so obvious flaws. The known originals are die stamped with crisp, sharp edges, these are cast with that waxy or smooth butter appearance. As Darrell has already pointed out, the globe and attached continents aren't the right type for this pattern. The finish on the very thick and not very well applied continents and anchors look more like something from a late 1950's-early 1960's emblem, with a fake gold wash and not the rolled gold or 1/20th G.F. you should find on other officer's emblems of the same 1930's period. Some have suggested British or Chinese made. The British made Gaunt <?> emblems of this type, I'm told, are even better than the US made emblems, so I don't believe these would come close to being those. I can't say for sure because I've never seen a Gaunt emblem of this type, but Gaunt made some real beauties in other patterns, so why not these? As for Chinese made? It would certainly fit the "China Marine" mystique, but exactly when were they made? 75 years ago or 10, 15 or 20 years ago?

As for the not so obvious flaws, please feel free to PM me and I'll share with you, but I'd like to keep them under wraps for as long as possible and see if the guy who is popping these out catches his mistakes. My gut feeling is eBay seller USNUSA has something to do with them, or has access to the source.

Let me make myself perfectly clear here. These are only my opinions from collecting EGA's for the past 25+ years and from gathered knowledge from collectors who know allot more than me, but I guarantee you that if one of these dress cover birds pops out of an attributed Marine grouping, I'll be the first to apologize. I just don't think I'll have to!

After rereading my post and realizing, as Jeremiah puts it, that I just posted another Old Testament reply, sorry! I'm a long winded old fart, but these emblems are worthy of way more discussion.

Gary

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 August 2007 - 09:40 AM.


#19 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 07:02 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem
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and

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem
phony2.jpg

The seller of these is is USAUSN.

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 22 February 2009 - 06:09 AM.


#20 bobgee

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 06:53 AM

As collectors of USMC Eagle, Globe & Anchor emblems, all of us need to be aware of what's out in the marketplace before we get seperated from big bucks for modern repros. Knowledge is power they say so here are some "RARE" items you can purchase from EBay seller NCHS. They are relatively inexpensive and might not be a bad investment for some as 'types'They are sold as rproductions but are not marked as such. .........Be careful out there............it's a collector's minefield! Semper Fi........Bob


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Repro_USMC_French_Pair_GILT_NCHS_05_07_OBV_EBay.j.jpg
Repro_USMC_French_Pair_GILT_NCHS_05_07_REV_EBay.j.jpg
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Repro_USMC_Pair_EBay_OBV.jpg

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 31 December 2007 - 08:27 PM.


#21 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 09:51 AM

Hey Bob, thanks for posting these. I take real issue w/ these, not about his right to make and sell this junk, but for what they "become" when they leave his hands and enter the secondary. At least he says up front what they are, but, what happens when they are in someone else's hand or show up in flea markets and the such, is a whole different issue http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/mad.gif

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 29 August 2007 - 09:52 AM.


#22 GLM *Deceased*

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 05:25 PM

I've had several warnings from eBay that harrassing sellers WILL NOT be tolerated, when all I did was suggest to the sellers of these reproductions, this one included, that they should mark them as such. Don't kid yourself, these sellers know what they're doing and anything that messes with the bottom line $$$ wont be tolerated by either them or eBay.

With prices realized for scarce to rare EGA's, we are just now beginning to see the selling of excellent fakes, and it's going to become the same mess allot of us saw with TR badges a decade or so ago.

Gary

Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 07 October 2007 - 05:16 AM.
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#23 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 30 August 2007 - 11:08 AM

I agree with Gary wholeheartedly. When this seller commenced putting these fakes, they were very obvious. However they were not very well received, I believe due in part to their "New Finish" an ugly / crude appearance. Over time I have observed his "product line" increasing in numbers and a reversal from the new finish to one of an aged patina of sorts and significantly increased detailing. The intent is obvious. As long as these types can hide beneath the skirt of Meg Whitman... http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/disgust.gif enough said!

#24 teufelhunde.ret

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 10:51 AM

Seller is noted for these... has been selling these gems (and others) for some time now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...I...A:IT&ih=012

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Edited by teufelhunde.ret, 18 September 2007 - 11:04 AM.


#25 usmcaviator

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 01:59 PM

Whoever is making these, is also making the re-pops of the French made WW1 insignia and other insignia that never existed, such as the 8th and I looking piece and the upswept wings piece. The construction and back is a dead giveaway as well as the blued/blackened appearance. It is hard to see but the back of the anchor side almost looks like it was ground out or hollowed out, a pebbled appearance to give a hollow cast appearance. The black on some of these can be rubbed off with the fingers as well.

Whatever process they are using when casting these, it all looks the same (like junk) and is not known to have existed on any original lots that I have handled. This seller has to be in contact with the maker, know who it is, or has a large supply of these that he slowly tries to sell. It's funny how he tries to work the sleight-of-hand magic by adding a real campaign hat or in this case throwing in a pair of $3.00 Major's insignia to "sell" the piece.

The fakes of the French made versions and 8th and I pieces were being peddled by military and antique dealers out of the Gettysburg area a few years ago, they were in every antique store and military store there. The story there was that they were out of a collection of an old USMC Quartermaster and he saved examples before they were approved by the Marine Corps....all BS. These will also be stamped "J.R. GAUNT, ENGLAND" and have seperately applied logos. I think the source is East Coast and around Virginia.

I know some names of who was peddling them but not sure who is making them. I have a suspicion. These have since showed up on Manion's Auctions and will be seen as buy it nows on E-Bay.

I will post some pics of these non-existent insignia all together so that you can see, side by side, the similarities of construction.

Maj Manifor


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