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HELP WITH TIME PERIOD OF NAVAL BADGE

Started by BND173D , Sep 14 2017 03:18 AM

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#1 BND173D

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:18 AM

WANTING TO KNOW WHAT ERA THIS NAVAL BADGE IS. NO MARKINGS ON BACK IS PIN BACK AND OPEN CATCH. THANKS ED

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#2 BND173D

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:18 AM

BACK

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#3 Allan H.

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:24 AM

The eagle's head facing to the viewer's right was stopped in 1941 when the eagle's head was turned to face the viewer's left.  I would say that this badge dates to the WWI period, but it could have been worn in the 1920's.

 

Allan



#4 BND173D

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:47 AM

THANKS AGAIN FOR QUICK RESPONSE ALLEN. ED



#5 KurtA

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:51 AM

I think the only use for this smaller size insignia was for wear on the USN officer's garrison cap (aka, overseas cap, etc).  Prior to WW2, I think mainly Naval aviators wore such caps.  The question is, when did this start?  I don't think it was as early as WW1.    There's a good chance it was the 1930's and by default,  this pin dates from that time frame.

Somebody with some early USN Uniform Regs (or dated period photos) could probably narrow it down more precisely. 

Nice pin!



#6 Dave

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 05:35 AM

I'm with KurtA...I'd say 1930s. Very nice and very hard to find!



#7 MastersMate

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:18 AM

A possibility, depending on the size..

From the 1917 USN Uniform Regulations. Would have been worn on the 'choker collar' of the service dress blue uniform, aft of the rank insignia, item 262...

 

CHAPTER 10.

UNIFORM REGULATIONS UNITED STATES NAVAL

RESERVE FORCE.

 

261. The Uniform Regulations, United States Navy, shall govern all classes of the Naval Reserve Force except as hereinafter specified.

 

Class I. The Fleet Naval Reserve, both officers and men, same as for the Navy for such uniforms as are required.

Class II. The Naval Reserve.

Class IV. The Naval Coast Defense Reserve.

Class V. The Naval Reserve Flying Corps.

 

Officers: Same as for officers of the Navy for such uniforms as are required for active duty, except that the Naval Reserve device shall be worn on the collar in lieu of corps device and metal buttons shall be the design adopted for the Naval Reserve Force.

 

Men: Same as for the Navy, except that the cap ribbon shall bear the words, “U. S. Naval Reserve Force.”

 

 

Class III. The Naval Auxiliary Reserve. Officers: In time of peace, the uniform of the steamship line or company in which serving with the Naval Reserve device on the collar of a military coat or on the lapels of a box coat. On active service or in war, the uniform cap of a commissioned or warrant officer of the same rank shall be worn. Men: In time of peace, uniform required by steamship line. In time of war, same as for the Navy of corresponding rating with cap ribbon bearing the words “U. S. Naval Reserve Force.”

 

262. The Naval Reserve Force device as shown in photo cut, figure 1, plate 30, shall be of metal similar to the device on the cap of a commissioned officer, United States Navy, except that the height shall be 1 inch. The Naval Reserve Force button of metal shall be in sizes the same as those of the Navy and as shown in photo cut, figure 2, plate 30.


Edited by MastersMate, 14 September 2017 - 06:20 AM.


#8 BND173D

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:49 AM

I AM SORRY I SHOULD HAVE PUT THE SIZE. IT IS 1 1/8TH INCH TALL AND 1 5/16 INCH WIDE. THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO. ED



#9 KurtA

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 07:19 AM

1 1/8 inches tall is pretty close to 1 inch tall, so it could be what is described in item 262.   Anyone have a period photo of this?  



#10 MastersMate

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 02:20 PM

A couple of curious details.. The layout of the stars on the shield 6 above 7 and the routing of the foul cable...  May help to pin it to a specific manufacturer style,   



#11 doyler

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 02:28 PM

Appears the catch is the "C" type or open loop opposed to later seen roller catch



#12 BND173D

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 03:05 PM

YES IS C TYPE CATCH, WILL TRY TO GET SOME BETTER PHOTOS TOMORROW. IT HAS BEEN OVERCAST LAST COUPLE DAYS AND HARD TO GET CLEAR PHOTOS. THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO SO FAR. ED



#13 MastersMate

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:03 PM

Not great for detail, but a photo of the usage.  The size posted is damned near the same as the current size garrison cap device...

 

 

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#14 BND173D

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:31 PM

SO WOULD THIS BE WW1 ERA OR POST WW1 1920 -1930. THANKS ED



#15 MastersMate

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:45 PM

That blue tunic style uniform and cap was discontinued about 1919 or 1920.  That collar type insignia was no longer used, other than for midshipmen



#16 MastersMate

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:50 PM

Surprising ID on the Naval Reserve LT....

 

 

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#17 BND173D

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:52 PM

THANKS FOR ALL THE INFO. ED



#18 KurtA

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 03:41 AM

Proves to me these smaller pins of that style date back to WW1. Great info.



#19 MastersMate

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 08:28 AM

Found a small uniform item in the Feb 1943 issue of ALL HANDS magazine announcing the usage of garrison caps for officers, warrant officers and cpo's.

 

They would be optional with the blue, white khaki, grey and green uniforms.  Officers would wear rank device on the right side and miniature Navy officer cap insignia on left side. Warrant officers would wear corps device (specialty) on both sides (gold for warrant, silver for chief warrant) and CPOs would wear their cap device on left side.

 

It mentioned that the garrison cap had long been used by naval aviators and the wore rank device in the right front and miniature aviator insignia on the left side..



#20 Allan H.

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:36 PM

Found a small uniform item in the Feb 1943 issue of ALL HANDS magazine announcing the usage of garrison caps for officers, warrant officers and cpo's.

 

They would be optional with the blue, white khaki, grey and green uniforms.  Officers would wear rank device on the right side and miniature Navy officer cap insignia on left side. Warrant officers would wear corps device (specialty) on both sides (gold for warrant, silver for chief warrant) and CPOs would wear their cap device on left side.

 

It mentioned that the garrison cap had long been used by naval aviators and the wore rank device in the right front and miniature aviator insignia on the left side..

By 1943, the direction that the eagle's head faces would have changed by regulation, so that the only officer's cap device would have been one that faced opposite of the one that the device that started this thread is oriented. Additionally, the position of the of the crossed anchors' flukes would not have been partially obscured by the shield as is the case with the photographed example. I still maintain that this piece dates to the WWI era.

 

Allan



#21 TheMariner

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Posted 25 September 2017 - 07:24 PM

I wanted to post that this insignia now belongs to me! Thanks for all who commented! I look forward to having it in hand! it has alluded me for sometime! 

Compared to other WW1 era pieces the construction style to me screams WW1 era! I will add other images upon receiving it for reference! 


Edited by TheMariner, 25 September 2017 - 07:28 PM.


#22 KurtA

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Posted 26 September 2017 - 04:13 AM

. I still maintain that this piece dates to the WWI era.

 

Allan

 

I think the regulations extract and period photo of the pin in wear that were posted  proves it 100%.   I always thought these small badges were only for overseas caps (which would have to make it well post WW1).  However, now that I see they were worn as collar insignia, I'm convinced WW1. 



#23 MastersMate

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 08:25 PM

From Col. Dion Williams uniform reference from WW 1..

 

 

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Edited by MastersMate, 21 October 2017 - 08:28 PM.



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