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WW1 Wing Opinions


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#26 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:33 AM

Tongue clasp reaching through rear of plate

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#27 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:34 AM

Take a good look at the indention on the felt, created over the past hundred years of the wing being set upon that backplate... Fits like a glove

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#28 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:37 AM

Rear of opposite side which has a slight bend in the brass plate away from the wing tip; there is noticeable wear in the fell around the wing fitting hole and a small hole worn in the felt below it

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#29 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:38 AM

Approximately 80° opening of pin at hinge

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#30 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:39 AM

Top shot of pin hinge

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#31 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:40 AM

Full back shot

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#32 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:41 AM

Elongated tongue clasp

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#33 mtnman

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 11:42 AM

Top shot with 80° opening

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#34 rustywings

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 11:29 AM

Dear MtnMan,

 

You're a good friend and a well respected collector in the hobby, so it makes me feel very uncomfortable to say I have some real concerns with the Meyer Pilot badge you've been kind enough to share with us. 

 

Please keep in mind, my personal "box-of-tears" contains numerous reproductions and ill-guided wing purchases I've made over the years proving I'm no expert and still have much to learn!

 

With this most recent posting, I'm afraid I see the same re-struck Meyer example as illustrated at the beginning of this thread... and it appears the badge has been altered with a cam-stop style pin and the application of an authentic WWI cloth covered back plate in an effort to disguise and deceive an unsuspecting buyer.

 

I look forward to hearing what others have to say. Don't hesitate to let me know what I might be missing here... and how wrong I might be.  

 

 

 



#35 mtnman

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 11:43 AM

Thanks for you input Russ! As Always, life is a learning experience. I am no expert in the course of Meyer development of badges. I look forward to your input as always dear friend, you know that.

I guess, from what has been proposed here, there was never a Meyer wing style of valid origin, bearing this maker's mark??

#36 mtnman

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 01:05 PM

Oh, I forgot to add, this one was from a few years back and was I think, the first, or one of the the first tries I made at WWI wings. So no worries if this actually is tagged as a fake. We can all learn....

#37 pfrost

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Posted 28 January 2016 - 03:42 PM

I want to like these wings, but I had the same issues that Russ had.  Other than the cam'd pin, it is identical to the repops that you see.  It does look like they took the  restrike "tell-tale" pin  and replaced it with a more vintage pin.  You have it in hand and maybe I am wrong, but I think Russ and I are seeing the same thing.  It isn't uncommon to see people now replacing these new NS Meyer pins with older "proper" pins. That is what I suspect happened.

 

The backing plate looks ok, until you start asking why is the material UNDER the wing is worn while the material around the edge and the back of the plate is perfect?  Frankly, what you usually see is the opposite, with the material under the wing LESS worn than the material outside the wing.  The same thing with the wear around the hole in the backing plate that is not similar to the wear on the edge.

 

I think they used the wing to try to rub down the nap of the fabric, to get it a "worn" look.  But it is 100% opposite then what one would expect to see.

 

Here is the wear on a backing plate from a wing in my collection.  Of course there may be significant differences, as my wing was supposed to be (more or less) permanently attached to its backing plate.

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Edited by pfrost, 28 January 2016 - 03:51 PM.


#38 cwnorma

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 04:37 PM

Thanks for you input Russ! As Always, life is a learning experience. I am no expert in the course of Meyer development of badges. I look forward to your input as always dear friend, you know that.

I guess, from what has been proposed here, there was never a Meyer wing style of valid origin, bearing this maker's mark??

Mel,

 

I didn't intend for this thread to go this way...  I think that the wing you have may be an altered restrike--unfortunately, I also believe it was expertly altered in order to deceive.  

 

In this case, I would say it shares too much in common with known restrikes.  The simple hook catch, and the separate "STERLING" and "N.S. MEYER INC NEW YORK" hallmarks--identical to the wing at the opening of this thread.

 

On the other hand, the US is very different from most of the restrikes and the backplate is very well made, these aspects would entice many collectors to set aside any misgivings.

 

If it is any consolation, I bought what I learned to be a Meyer restrike early in my collecting career.  While writing this I got up and pulled it out of my "reference box" (my version of Russ' box-of-tears) to look at it, and rediscovered that it too has an 80% pin.  I think that possibly, the only sure ways to be more certain about Meyer-type badges is having the correct catch or getting it from the family. 

 

To answer your question above; I don't know.  I do know all the sterling restrikes have this combination.  I am not very well versed in the history of NS Meyer and don't know if "N.S. MEYER INC NEW YORK" in two lines as seen on these badges was ever actually used by the company?  If it was, when?  Is it a WW2 era hallmark?  I just don't know the answer to these questions to a level that I find satisfactory.  

 

From my perspective, near the beginning of this thread I learned, through the kindness of Russ, that there was a Meyer-badge that was marked "ROLLED PLATE" and "MEYER NEW YORK (shield)" hallmark.  Before that, I was under the impression that all real Meyer type badges had three characteristics:  1) "Come under" patent safety catch.  2) 80 deg pin.  3) "STERLING" hallmark.  It may be that I passed up good badges that did not conform to those three rules.

 

Best wishes

 

Chris



#39 cwnorma

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 05:08 PM

All,

 

Here are photos of my restrike Meyer badge:

 

Restrike Meyer - 1.jpg

Obverse:  US is applied, yellow metal, no gold content

 

Restrike Meyer - 2.jpg

Reverse:  N.S. MEYER INC NEW YORK two-line hallmark  Badge is not sterling and is not marked such.  Simple catch.

 

Restrike Meyer - 3.jpg

Top view of 80-degree pin

 

Chris



#40 mtnman

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Posted 29 January 2016 - 05:44 PM

You guys are a class act, excellent, excellent reference material that should protect many from the deception of those who, instead of using their talents and initiative to take the path of relationship building through honest enjoyment of and commerce involving these tiny monuments to our fliers who once protected freedom, instead isolate themselves under the shadows within which a lie must be nurtured constantly to survive. Thanks so much for all your input gentleman!

#41 rustywings

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 10:01 AM

For reference, the top image is the back of a 1980's Meyer restrike of an Airship badge with a hallmark very similar to the one in question. The bottom image is an authentic period Meyer made Airship badge for comparison. (The authentic badge was copied from Bob's website www.ww2wings.com ).

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  • Airship restrike back..jpg
  • Authentic Meyer Airship.jpg

Edited by rustywings, 30 January 2016 - 10:27 AM.


#42 B-17Guy

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Posted 30 January 2016 - 10:27 AM

The base of the pin was the give away for me, once I saw it with the back plate removed.

Notice it is the same as the Airship wing too.

This would be a good time to bring this thread up again.

 

 

http://www.usmilitar...se-meyer-wings/

 

 

Sorry Mel, sympathies, I have been there buddy.

My "Box of Tears" weighs more then I care to admit.

 

John



#43 rustywings

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 11:55 AM

Chris, I believe this Junior/Reserve Military Aviator half-wing is an authentic unmarked Meyer made badge which closely resembles your recently posted full size variation. Like yours, there's only a STERLING stamp on the back. It appears this badge didn't get a great deal of wear because much of the original frosting remains in-tack and the "come-under" catch is undamaged. 

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  • photo (11).JPG
  • Meyer made.png
  • photo (15).JPG

Edited by rustywings, 02 February 2016 - 12:05 PM.


#44 cwnorma

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 08:01 PM

Russ,

 

That is a beautiful wing!  What a rare treat to see a badge with so much original finish!  Thank you again for sharing specimens from your extensive collection.

 

I can see distinct similarity between the two "STERLING" marked badges.  As you point out, it has the patent "come-under" type clasp, and the shape of the US on the front seems to be the same.

 

I have often wondered, and it may be hard--if not impossible--to tell, does it appear that the left wing was cut off or does it appear as though the half wing had its own die?  If you compare the die work for the shield and right wing side by side with a Meyer-type full wing is the die work the same?

 

Chris



#45 rustywings

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 03:17 PM

Chris, I can't tell for certain. The left edge of the shield isn't as cleanly shaved as I would expect to see with a one-wing die strike. But in the same breathe, there's no obvious signs that a jeweler's saw was used to remove the wing either. There is a pretty good coating of frosting remaining on that edge which might be concealing any possible saw marks?  I'm leaning towards it being a single-wing die-struck piece, but with modest reservations...

 

Here's a few ho-hum images of that left edge:

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  • photo (20).JPG
  • photo (23).JPG


#46 cwnorma

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:27 PM

Russ,

 

Thanks again for sharing this.

 

So looking at your photos, I think I can see something that could be the root of where a wing was filed off?  What do you think of the areas I circled?

 

photo (18).JPG photo (20).JPG photo (23).JPG

 

Of course, those too could merely be die-artifacts...  Do you think those somethings correspond in any way with the root of the wing where it attaches to the sheild?

 

Warm regards,

 

Chris



#47 rustywings

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:59 AM

Chris, yes I think you're right. Those two marks do seem to correspond as shadows where a left wing once existed. When you run your finger along the shield's left edge, any deviation in the surface is indistinguishable... and when you look at the edge with the naked eye, you see a nice even coating of frosting. But the enlarged images do indeed show two shadows consistent with remnants of a wing.

 

It seems like the cutting and buffing of each 1/2 wing before immersing into the frosting would have been labor intensive and cause for greater expense... but then I guess the manufacturer does get to reclaim the removed wing and recycle that bit of sterling silver into the next batch.    

 

Interesting stuff!           



#48 cwnorma

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 07:17 PM

Russ,

 

Great conversation about this wonderful badge.  I spent a good 20 or so minutes studying these photos yesterday, and from what I think I see,  the wing appears to have been expertly removed by Meyer--exactly as you say, before final finishing and frosting.

 

Another thing I did was compare, as best I could, the die work with badges I have, and again, from what I think I see, the die work seems to be identical; leading me to believe that Meyer used only the one die.

 

I don't have one like this, and as you have seen by now, I really, really like to be forearmed when making a decision.  If and when one of these comes my way, I want to be able to make a good decision.  Once again, when that time comes, I will owe you a frosty beverage of your choice!

 

This thread, and the Meyer hallmark thread should be required reading for anyone who wants to acquire one of these badges.  Between all the examples and information, there should be enough for any careful reader to avoid the numerous restrikes.

 

Thanks again.

 

Chris



#49 cwnorma

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 07:40 PM

It seems like the cutting and buffing of each 1/2 wing before immersing into the frosting would have been labor intensive and cause for greater expense... but then I guess the manufacturer does get to reclaim the removed wing and recycle that bit of sterling silver into the next batch.          

 

I also note, I Scheuer lists the price for the full wing as $2.50 while the half wing is 80% of the full wing at $2.00  My Army & Navy Store Catalog for 1918 shows the same badges for $3.25 and $2.75 respectively (~85%).  Fixed overhead costs would be the same, but variable materials would be somewhat less for the half wing.  I would guess maybe 60%?  Perhaps the difference was due to the additional variable labor to cut and polish the badge?

 

Speculation--I know.  But it is interesting to think about!

 

Chris



#50 rustywings

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 11:39 AM

Chris, thank you for your generous comments and for taking the time to share your knowledge and insight. After you opened my eyes to Meyer's practice of cutting off a wing to produce a different rating, I checked a Meyer-made USN Airship 1/2 wing and found similar evidence of a rock-solid authentic badge being altered in the same fashion!

 

I apologize for the poor cellphone images, but check out this new-old-stock USN Airship 1/2 wing I bought years ago from a family member who's father owned the WOSK Army/Navy Store in San Diego beginning in the 1930's.   

 

Note the incised Meyer shield near the tip of the wing; the "Meyer-Metal" stamp towards the center of the badge; the open "C" catch (similar to the type found on the later restrikes); and the stop-cam style pin (allowing the pin to open about 45 degrees).

 

 

   

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  • photo (21).JPG
  • photo (19).JPG
  • photo (18).JPG



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