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What do you think about these Meyer wings?

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I'm just wondering about what you guys think about these meyer wings. Both wings have pins which open to 45 degrees and don't look cast. I didn't like the placement of the hallmarks on the bottom wing, especially with the shield being partially washed out, but I can't tell if this was from wear of from being cast.

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Those are re-strikes.

John


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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Yep, both are bad But they aren't cast, the dies are wearing out


Paul Conrad
Still looking for quality wings!

www.conradwings.com
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I am bored prefixing everything I say with "I think" or "in my opinion".
Everything I say is my opinion; the only thing of which I am certain is that there is very little of which one can be certain.

 


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I would suspect that these restrikes originally had a dark laquer like coating on the back as many of the restrikes have. I would also suspect that these wings had the wrong hardware. What the faker seems to have done is remove the wrong fittings, then used a buffing wheel to take off the back coating and then re-attached the vintage-appropriate hardware (probably from a cheaper wing).

 

The "wear" on the hallmark is from the buffing out process, I believe. They then tried to repatinate the wing using chemical means.

 

If you look at the STERLING mark (which is the wrong font, so that is another indication of restrike) you can see the original laquer finish still present.

 

These restrikes have been around for a long time and some of them are getting pretty hard to tell from the originals. You just have to handle alot of them.

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Here is a quick object lesson...

Remember, it takes a long time to learn Meyer re-strikes.

You have to handle and see a lot of them, but once you learn what to

look for, you can spot them easy.

 

John

 

#1 Top bad, bottom good.

post-12439-0-65892800-1425415453.jpg


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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#2 Top bad, bottom good.

Look at the findings, especially the base of the pin.

Look how the bottom edge of the wing has been made to appear worn.

 

post-12439-0-87535300-1425415630.jpg


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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#3 Foreground good, background bad.

Notice the base of the pin again and the two "feet" that are used to attach it to the badge.

Classic Meyer re-strike pin.

post-12439-0-05270500-1425415778.jpg


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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#4 Bottom good, top bad.

Notice the pin again and also notice the edges of the wings.

Very different.

post-12439-0-52978900-1425415998.jpg


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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meyer is the most faked wing??? seems to be


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Certainly is IMO


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Thanks Patrick for the info and thanks also to John for the photo comparison.From the front,I can't see any differences that jump out at me,which makes sense if they are restrikes.I guess all the "tells" are on the back,much like in the "patch" world.


High Flight

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth

And danced the skies on laughter-silver wings;

Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth

Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things

You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung

High in the sunlit silence. Hovering there

I've chased the shouting wind along and flung

My eager craft through footless halls of air.

Up, up the long delirious, burning blue

I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace,

where never lark, or even eagle flew;

and while, with silent, lifting mind I've trod

The high untrespassed sanctity of space,

Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

 

John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

June 9, 1922 – December 11, 1941

 

 

 

" And each man stands with his face in the light of his own drawn sword. Ready to do what a hero can." - Elizabeth Barrett Browning

 

 

Don't let the B@stards wear you down -"Vinegar" Joe Stillwell

 

 

Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world.Unreasonable

people attempt to adapt the world to themselves.All progress,

therefore, depends on unreasonable people.

George Bernard Shaw

 

 

" Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining" , Fletcher,from the movie "The outlaw Josey Wales"

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Back, sides, and pin.

I agree with the thanks. This helps a lot when identifying the timeframe of these wings.

 

I knew about the pin but the hallmark difference most notably the font is news to me. Also the side view helps.

 

-Brian


GOT SEABEE ITEMS? PM ME!

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Good stuff all.Armed with this info,I will feel more confident when browsing the Meyer stuff.


High Flight

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth

And danced the skies on laughter-silver wings;

Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mirth

Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things

You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung

High in the sunlit silence. Hovering there

I've chased the shouting wind along and flung

My eager craft through footless halls of air.

Up, up the long delirious, burning blue

I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace,

where never lark, or even eagle flew;

and while, with silent, lifting mind I've trod

The high untrespassed sanctity of space,

Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

 

John Gillespie Magee, Jr.

June 9, 1922 – December 11, 1941

 

 

 

" And each man stands with his face in the light of his own drawn sword. Ready to do what a hero can." - Elizabeth Barrett Browning

 

 

Don't let the B@stards wear you down -"Vinegar" Joe Stillwell

 

 

Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world.Unreasonable

people attempt to adapt the world to themselves.All progress,

therefore, depends on unreasonable people.

George Bernard Shaw

 

 

" Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining" , Fletcher,from the movie "The outlaw Josey Wales"

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I always say the thing about NS Meyer wings is that it is rare to reach a consensus, and even if you convince 3 people, the 4th one will come along and argue with you about the whole thing. Eventually, you get a feel for a "good" wing, but even then, it is never going to be as valuable as another maker.

 

You just have to decide what level of risk you are willing to take.

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Great information fellows-hope this gets pinned.


Looking for: Fourth/ Seventh Rhode Island Infantry items


Purple Heart : Robert L. Freitag KIA ETO 2/11/45


Any US/German items with the last name "Freitag"


also, war-related posters



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the back edges of the restrikes seem to be more ground/polished down.

I don't know if that's because the edges look like crap when the dies wear out or just because they cleaned them up more... but something else to note.

 

-Brian


GOT SEABEE ITEMS? PM ME!

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In the thread on "Opinions of a WW1 Wing" there is a ref to a previous thread on Meyer restrikes.This covered basically the pin as a give away but what about the hallmarks.

 

Years ago there was a book published "A Companion to Wings of WW2". In this reference the author states the following

 

"The earliest version we find is N.S. Meyer, Inc, New York. By the 1930's the "Inc" was eliminated and the corporate shield was added. During the 1930's and 40's the hallmarks were incised and shields were raised at the side of the name, but raised hallmarks were also used concurrently in the early 1940's. Post war pieces up to 1953 have the name in raised letters and the shield centered below the name, which by then was much reduced in size. Other post war Meyers's wings might simply have the shield with no other inscription."

 

Looking forward to hearing what the authorities think of his research? Since reading that years ago I always assumed that any Meyer wing with just the shield was a post war piece.

 

I don't collect WW2 wings due to the confusion about restrikes and personally I can't tell the diff between a wing struck from the original die in 1940 and one struck from the same die yesterday.

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Hey Terry, thanks for the input.

I only mentioned the pin and not the hallmark's on the WWI wing thread because they were already discussed, but I agree, they are indicators as well.

We all have initial impressions and the pin base on a Meyer is one of the first things I look at.

Regarding the use of the shield, NS Meyer, New York yes, New York no, raised, stamped, etc, I have seen and heard lots of theories.

Someone even drew a chart showing the history once, nailing down all the dates for all the hallmarks by Meyer, then someone on the internet

says "See here is proof". Yet, there is no hard evidence in official print that any of it is correct.

I have done a lot of research and this is the only OFFICIAL piece of evidence that I can find regarding the use of the Meyer Shield,

 

First used in commerce May 15 1917 and on record as a registered trademark (see image)

 

Collectors long to find "Silver Bullets" in dating badges and insignia.

As I think we all agree, the only way to learn about Meyer wings, is to handle a lot of them, seek guidance from experienced wing collectors

and then make the best informed decisions we can. There are some great Meyer wings out there that are highly collectible, but we all must be

armed with the knowledge of how the tell good from bad.

 

Best, John

 

PS, I did find the trademark information for "MeyerMetal" as well, first used December 14, 1923

 

Also attaching a biographical Meyer pilot wing badge image from WWII worn by a friend that flew P-39's and P-40's

post-12439-0-10361700-1454256072.jpg

post-12439-0-31766700-1454257438.jpg


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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Terry,

I cannot fully answer your question--because I simply do not know enough about the time line of implementation for NS Meyer Hallmarks. What I do know is that the two line; "N.S. Meyer Inc. NEW YORK" hallmark seems to be on many (if not nearly all) of the restrikes of early badges. This leads me to several theories/conclusions:

 

1) That hallmark still exists and is in the hands of whoever owns the die and is producing the restricts

2) Perhaps the author of "A Companion to Wings of WW2" knows something we don't (this could go two ways):

a) The author has some knowledge of real early wings with this hallmark

B) The author has some interest in "legitimatizing" the "N.S. Meyer Inc. NEW YORK" hallmark.

 

Because I am somewhat ignorant on the actual details I can not say which (or something I haven't thought of) to be the case. I am always leery of "research" as much of it in the "collectibles" arena is not true research at all. Specifically is rarely fully peer-reviewed, and thus can be subject to the biases, pet theories, and/or misconceptions of the author.

 

Furthermore, there is a class of reproductionist that operate in a fully integrated approach. For a great example, consider the so-called "Wells-Fargo" buckles. The fakers involved went so far as to publish books and collector guides to the buckles. All of them were however fantasy pieces. There are also several well known instances of authors in the Third Reich badges arena who have been known to "legitimatize" bad items in their books for their own profit-motives.

 

Please note, I do not claim that the author wrote the passage in order to deceive. I simply am too ignorant of the totality of the facts to make such an accusation. I only note that at the very least, the two-line "N.S. MEYER Inc. NEW YORK" hallmark is still in existence and active use by someone involved in stamping out restrikes.

 

Chris


767409605_sigcustom3.png.e95257302e2a500ba241cd8cdc44ff0c.png

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John,

 

So the wing you posted demonstrates two things with respect to the passage from "A Companion to Wings of WW2" Terry quoted above:

 

1) The statement; "By the 1930's the "Inc" was eliminated and the corporate shield was added" is not fully correct

2) The two-line "N.S. MEYER INC NEW YORK" hallmark was in use during WW2 (at least in an excised or raised fashion)--when did it come into use? Are there earlier wings with this hallmark (either raised or stamped)?

 

Noteworthy as well is that raised hallmarks are of a decidedly different nature from stamped hallmarks. Raised hallmarks must be a part of the die-hob, and are thus extremely difficult for fakers to reproduce without access to original hobbs. Stamped hallmarks require access only to the appropriate stamps. Which can be easily manufactured today.

 

Chris


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Here are two wings which can add a bit of a time stamp.

The Aviator is a pre-WWII pattern with the stamped style Meyer shield and stamped ROLLED GOLD, the second is a first

pattern Pilot with a stamped Meyer shield as well and stamped STERLING.

The wing in post #21 is a second pattern Meyer Pilot wing, which was purchased at Luke Field in 1944.

I have numerous Meyer wings in my collection with many combinations of marks and it is my feeling that the

 

N.S. MEYER INC.

NEW YORK

 

with shield below; came about sometime around 1943-1944 (which is about when I think the second pattern pilot wing made it's appearance) and used for decades.

I had a Vietnam era Meyer Senior Pilot wing that had the exact same back mark in non-sterling and 9M.

 

As for raised or stamped STERLING, well, Meyer made wings from Sterling, Brass and Nickel, so many dies didn't have the STERLING mark incorporated,

it was added via stamping, depending on what base metal was used.

Also, remember brass was restricted in the 1943 and I think 1944 as a critical war material, so it was not supposed to be used in that time frame for badges.

Maybe that is why STERLING was part of the die-hob in late WWII?

 

John

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post-12439-0-08716000-1454264285.jpg


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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Vietnam era

post-12439-0-19232500-1454266583.jpg


...and on the eighth day, God created the radial engine...

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