Jump to content


Photo

VMF-214 "Blacksheep" : How many patch types used during WW2?


  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 Eric Queen

Eric Queen

    Douche Baggins of the Shire.

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 3,953
  • 3,822 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:11 AM

I saw a posting from Tom Kibler the other day where he had picked up a group of items from the son of a 214 veteran which included a patch. He did not show the patch but said it was the "good" one. I am wondering how many patches (how many types) were produced worn/during WW2 and which one is the "good" one.

As far as I know, the 214 (as "Blacksheep" not "Swashbucklers") performed three (3) tours. After the first tour they spent a week in Sydney, Australia where I assume the first patches were made.

Is this the Australian made patch (and the "good" one)? ** this does not belong to me **

Attached Images

  • 214 b.jpg


#2 Eric Queen

Eric Queen

    Douche Baggins of the Shire.

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 3,953
  • 3,822 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:14 AM

Then we move on to the one pictured in Millstein's book. This one (to me) also looks foreign made (could be wrong) and he says this one was used during their third and final tour on teh USS Franklin

Attached Images

  • 214 c.jpg


#3 Eric Queen

Eric Queen

    Douche Baggins of the Shire.

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 3,953
  • 3,822 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:17 AM

Then we have the US made version. Is it fair to assume that this version would have only been used by the men of the third tour (which did include some of Boyington's men)

Were there only these three (3) types used during WW2? Any information on the subject would be much appreciated.

Thank you

EQ

Attached Images

  • 214 a.jpg


#4 Eric Queen

Eric Queen

    Douche Baggins of the Shire.

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 3,953
  • 3,822 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 October 2012 - 06:21 AM

Period photo of a guy wearing the US made version of the patch.

Attached Images

  • scann0003.jpg


#5 67Rally

67Rally
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,529
  • 3,298 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington State

Posted 11 October 2012 - 09:10 AM

This patch is on Fred Losch's G-1 at Seattle's Museum of Flight. it is on loan from Losch's family:
Posted Image

#6 Jeffro

Jeffro
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,489
  • 586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NOYFB

Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:01 PM

Hello Eric, I think the first patch you have asked about is "the good one". JDK has posted G.L.Bowers' jacket with the same patch as Losch's in the groupings section of this forum: http://www.usmilitar...-vmf-214-items/
Moths apparently prefer the good ones as well. Jeffro

Edited by Jeffro, 11 October 2012 - 01:08 PM.


#7 Eric Queen

Eric Queen

    Douche Baggins of the Shire.

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 3,953
  • 3,822 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:41 PM

Thank you Jeffro. I appreciate that. Would it be accurate to conclude that these are the three (3) primary patches which were used during WW2, with that Aussie version being the best? I would guess though that any originals from that time period would be good and somewhat difficult to find.

Thanks again

Eric

#8 67Rally

67Rally
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,529
  • 3,298 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington State

Posted 11 October 2012 - 02:49 PM

I see these as four variations. The initial patch and Losch's patch are close but have some differences. Look at the blue field the sheep is standing on. The first one has a thin black outline surrounding it - between the grey portion. The embroidery/stitching inside the engine cowling is different as well - though that might be due to heavier wear on Losch's.

Regardless, I see FOUR variants.

#9 Jeffro

Jeffro
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,489
  • 586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NOYFB

Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:13 PM

67Rally, I think what Eric is asking are the three patches he has shown considered to be the official WW2 design versions of the "Blacksheep" patch. I would have to agree with the three being the 3 known versions from that era. The reasons there are embroidery differences (not major design variations) between the initially posted patch, the Bowers patch and Losch patches are because they are all Australian hand embroidered. Although the Aussies made beautifully embroidered patches staying true to the original design with remarkable detail and consistency, it is not uncommon to see slight variations in the actual embroidery details because they were producing a number of them by hand (and very likely different hands) at that to fill an order. Jeffro

#10 67Rally

67Rally
  • Members
    • Member ID: 9,529
  • 3,298 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Washington State

Posted 11 October 2012 - 08:38 PM

Roger that, Jeffro!

#11 Eric Queen

Eric Queen

    Douche Baggins of the Shire.

  • Moderators
    • Member ID: 3,953
  • 3,822 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:10 AM

Thanks again to all who responded. Was hoping that more would chime in. Here is an old negative of the patch which is kind of cool. It would be interesting at some point to do a deep dive on this subject as I don't believe one has ever been done and Milstein's book left many questions unanswered.

Thanks again

EQ

Attached Images

  • 214 negative x.jpg


#12 dave peifer

dave peifer
  • Members
    • Member ID: 22,060
  • 904 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:pa

Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:03 AM

hi guys..........these have to be super rare,i doubt many have survived being virgin wool...........dave

#13 Howard Kelley

Howard Kelley
  • Members
    • Member ID: 389
  • 674 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:08 PM

Here's one I owned 20 years ago.... :wacko:

Attached Images

  • 3755.jpg


#14 jpstout

jpstout
  • Members
    • Member ID: 3,673
  • 1,104 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:colorado

Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:41 AM

Hi, Howard,
Do you have a photo of the back of that swashbuckler patch?
thanks,
pat

#15 Howard Kelley

Howard Kelley
  • Members
    • Member ID: 389
  • 674 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 21 October 2012 - 11:48 AM

Hi, Howard,
Do you have a photo of the back of that swashbuckler patch?
thanks,
pat



Sorry Pat, I do not have a photo of the reverse.

If my memory is correct, the piece was Australian made on wool.

Regards,
Howard

#16 Jeffro

Jeffro
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,489
  • 586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NOYFB

Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

Howard, did you happen to have any provenance on the swashbucklers patch? For some reason, I don't get a good vibe from it. It has a strong resemblance to other vintage USMC repros I've seen to include that sort of dusty-looking soiling. The nips around the edges don't look like the typical moth damage and it only occurs around the edges. The embroidery looks a little thick to me as we'll. it is very similar to a VMF122 patch that is on a jacket that was posted by JPStout which I also think strongly resembles Aussie embroidery, but not quite for the same reasons. Not trying to pick any fights here, but I think sometimes the Aussie embroidery is not clearly understood, especially by myself. Perhaps some others can help clarify it for me. Jeffro


#17 Howard Kelley

Howard Kelley
  • Members
    • Member ID: 389
  • 674 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 21 October 2012 - 01:04 PM

Jeffro,
Been alot of water under the bridge since I last had this piece in my possession. Sold it around 1993-94. As I recall, the nips along the edge were from where it was taken off the jacket. (?). It is possible the piece was an early reproduction, I really can't say one way or another. The style of construction was similar to some of the Austrailian made 90th Bomb Group patches I once collected. I'm sure others here on the forum can give more information.
Howard

#18 Jeffro

Jeffro
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,489
  • 586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NOYFB

Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:31 PM

Howard, thanks. Jeffro

#19 dave peifer

dave peifer
  • Members
    • Member ID: 22,060
  • 904 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:pa

Posted 11 November 2012 - 09:43 AM

hi guys.........i'm not a patch collecter but just how rare would it be to find one of the first type pictured?australian made........thanks...........dave

#20 Jeffro

Jeffro
  • Members
    • Member ID: 2,489
  • 586 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NOYFB

Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

Dave, pretty rare in my opinion. I've seen 3 over the last year on various auction sites and here. I think the level of rareness would depend on the condition though. The ones I've seen to date are pretty moth damaged. If you have a bead on one, let me know. I'm still looking to add one to my collection. Jeffro

#21 dave peifer

dave peifer
  • Members
    • Member ID: 22,060
  • 904 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:pa

Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:25 PM

jeffro........thanks for the answer,i was told years ago that being made of virgin wool very few survived.a friend of mine,now deceased had one many years ago he got from boyington,he mounted it on a piece of grey board and had pappy sign it.he had photos of him and pappy at the oshkosh show,with pappy signing it.he later had it framed,i will never know what happened to it but i have no doubt it was his.........dave

#22 manayunkman

manayunkman
  • Members
    • Member ID: 51,189
  • 14,257 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Latrine Duty Cleaning My Own Mess

Posted 11 November 2012 - 03:58 PM

Some nice patches.

#23 Tom Kibler

Tom Kibler
  • Members
    • Member ID: 6,293
  • 731 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 18 January 2020 - 10:00 AM

Here it is Eric.

Attached Images

  • 2E8DC78E-9C55-4ACB-BCCB-46B42894E1AC.jpeg


#24 Tom Kibler

Tom Kibler
  • Members
    • Member ID: 6,293
  • 731 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 18 January 2020 - 11:30 AM

This is Lt. Glenn Bowers VMF-214 patch.  One of two he had.  The other was on his khaki jacket, sold in the 80's.  Bowers was in the second tour with the Black Sheep and with the squadron until it was disbanded.  He then went to either VMF-218 or VMF-251 (He went to both, but I am unsure of which one he went to first).  This patch is slightly different than Losch's patch.  The backing appears identical, but there are some minor production differences.  The large black stripe is stitched length-wise, in the same direction as the stripe.  Loch's is stitched perpendicular.  Additionally, there are minor differences in the design of the sheep and plane.  However, I can say with 100% certainty, that this is an identified, authentic WWII produced patch.

Attached Images

  • Bowers Group 1.jpeg


#25 Tom Kibler

Tom Kibler
  • Members
    • Member ID: 6,293
  • 731 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pennsylvania

Posted 18 January 2020 - 11:32 AM

This is the jacket Bowers sold (NOT IN MY COLLECTION).  This has been posted before.  This was his other pocket patch.001-27.jpg




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users