Help with WW1 patches???

[Guest polarbear87]

Hi all!

 

I am new to this forum, my name is Nick and live in Sweden, I collect US AEF items, this interest comes from that my grgrandfather served in the AEF in France 1918, I have some questions i need answered!. I have a special interest in the midwestern units mainly 35th and 89th Divisions, since i have relative and ancestors in the midwest!!

 

First i would realy need help with the color codes that the 35th division used on their patches in the great war (whole organisation), and specialy what the 138th Infantry used??, second did the 35th use SSI before the armestice?

 

and finaly what were the divisions that used SSI during the war???, I have heard of the 81st "Wildcat" but were there others??

In the diary of the famous Sgt York he writes that the 82nd had their SSI(AA) on wile training in the US?

http://www.alvincyork.org/Diary.htm

 

Please help me with these questions, a answer i not possible to get here in Sweden!!

Thank you in advance and a happy and great 2008

 

Nicholas Nordström-O`Grady

Sweden

[email protected]

[Shenkursk]

Hi Nicholas!

 

Here are some 138th Infantry examples:

officer's set

 

 

 

another officer

 

painted helmet

 

 

To my knowledge, no 35th Division shoulder insignias were worn prior to the armistice. The insignia might very well have been used on trunks, vehicles, etc., but the SSI is almost exclusively a post-Armistice item.

 

A good friend owns the 81st Division uniform of the soldier who claims to have made the very first ever American Shoulder sleeve insignia. In a hand-written letter to the collector (same one who still owns it today), he describes in detail the circumstances under which the 81st Division shoulder insignia was designed and made while still here in the USA. They wore them on the way over, and according to his letter were instructed to remove them immediately once their shoes hit the dock in France. If I remember it properly, he said that Sergeants came down the line with pocket knives making sure that this order was carried out. Since his was the very first 81st Division insignia ever made, he put his in his pocket instead of tossing it like most of the rest of the guys did. After the Armistice when the insignias were officially approved for wear on the uniform, he sewed his back on. Next time I am visiting with my friend, I will ask his permission to shoot a photo or two of the uniform, patch, and letter.

[Shenkursk]

There is a good color reference guide to the 35th and 89th Divisions in Chris Armold's book "Painted Steel". It would be improper to post an image of those pages here without asking Chris first, but that is easily done.

 

In the meantime, if you are collecting AEF items, you would be very well served to pick up a copy of this book. If you cannot get one in Sweden, let me know. I can easily get one and mail it to you.

[GLM]

Hello Nicholas,

 

Welcome to the forum! I'm sure you'll enjoy the massive amounts of WWI US history other members here are willing to share. A very informed group of collectors!

 

Here is a page from a history of the AEF printed in 1920 or '21 that a friend gave me years ago, referring to placement of color inserts on the 89th ID insignia.

 

If you would like a hardcopy of this page, please feel free to PM me with your address and I'll get one mailed to you.

 

Best Regards,

 

Gary

[Guest polarbear87]

Thank you Jeff and Gary!

 

This is great info for me!, But i can see not that the concensus among you is that NO SSI was worn in the trenches before the armestice!, Is that right?

and thanks Jeff i will realy check up on that book!

 

Thanks you again Sirs!

Nick

[Guest fox579]

Nick-

 

Glad you posted this topic (I’m new to this forum as well). I’ve also got an interest in the 35th and 89th divisions (I actually work in downtown St. Louis and drive past the old 138th Infantry armory building all the time!). I’ve been looking (unsuccessfully) for a long time for a comprehensive breakdown of all the different WWI 35th div unit patches. I’ve found a lot of the information out there that is contradictory. I’m starting to think that there was a fair amount of inconsistency even within some units back then.

 

I’ve attached a “cheat sheet” that I’ve been compiling over time. I make no claim that it’s 100% accurate, although some I’m more sure of than others (and any additional info would be welcomed). The Santa Fe Cross of the 138th Infantry has been particularly confusing. I visited the Missouri Historical Society once and did find a small paperback book put out for one of the 138th reunions in St. Louis (I think it was from the 30’s). I remember it hat a colored Santa Fe cross on the cover that resembled the 2nd one on my cheat sheet (I need to go back and look again as it has been a while). I remember they wouldn’t let you check anything out, but you could make copies. This version would also match the above footlocker/uniform group (posted by Jeff Shrader).

 

 

I’ve also attached a picture of some of the various unit histories of the 35th division so that your could see the Santa Fe Crosses on the covers.

 

 

interesting side note: The Missouri Historical Society is located on Skinker Blvd. -- named after Capt. Alexander Skinker who won the Medal of Honor while commanding “I” Company, 138th Infantry in the Argonne.

http://www.accessgenealogy.com/scripts/dat...ticleID=0000934

 

-Mike

[Guest fox579]

(...Continued from above)

 

Here are some more images.

 

 

The picture of the helmet (which was listed on e-bay) looks like the bottom one that Jeff Shrader posted, but is marked on the inside (kind of scratched on the rim) to a soldier in the 140th infantry.

 

 

The last shot I’ve attached is another uniform group that I saw on an auction site (E-bay?). It has 130th MG Bn collar disks but if you’ll notice, the Santa Fe Cross quadrants on the helmet don’t match the SSI (they’re opposite!). Did this group not all belong to the same soldier, or was there just inconsistency back then? You can see how this gets confusing!

 

If you’re interested in the 35th Division in WWI , I’d like to recommend a book that I really enjoyed. It’s called , “A Youth in the Meuse-Argonne: A Memoir, 1917-1918” by William Triplet. Triplet was a young soldier from Sedalia, Missouri who served in the 140th Inf. He’s got an interesting writing style and even a sense of humor about his army experience.

http://www.amazon.com/Youth-Meuse-Argonne-...3061&sr=1-1

 

-Mike

[aef1917]

I have also seen a number of quadrant combinations that don't seem to make sense. I'm beginning to think that the positions of different-colored quadrants doesn't mean as much as the quadrants' positions relative to each other.

 

For example, the 130th MG needs yellow and black quadrants diagonal to each other, but it doesn't matter which color is on the top left and bottom right.

 

Or the 140th Inf. needs two black in a row and two yellow in a row, but it doesn't matter if the pairs are on the top, bottom, or side.

 

In the case of the 139th Inf., which has three quadrants that are the same, the differently-colored quadrant could be in any position.

 

If this is the case, perhaps the different positions indicate different subordinate units within a regiment or battalion.

 

It's just a hypothesis, but it would be interesting to see as many identified groups as possible to see if it has any merit.

[Guest fox579]

Alright,

 

I was just looking over my previous post and I already noticed an error!

 

This is what I think should be on the cheat sheet for the 140th Infantry (which would be consistent with the unit history and the helmet with the Name/unit scratched on it).

 

 

-Mike

[Shenkursk]

This is what I think should be on the cheat sheet for the 140th Infantry (which would be consistent with the unit history and the helmet with the Name/unit scratched on it).

 

-Mike

 

 

I concur Mike. Nice art, by the way.

[Guest fox579]

I have also seen a number of quadrant combinations that don't seem to make sense. I'm beginning to think that the positions of different-colored quadrants doesn't mean as much as the quadrants' positions relative to each other.

 

...If this is the case, perhaps the different positions indicate different subordinate units within a regiment or battalion.

 

It's just a hypothesis, but it would be interesting to see as many identified groups as possible to see if it has any merit.

 

You may be right.

I just wish I could find an official publication with an explanation or an expert who has really put in some research to verify some of this stuff.

 

-Mike

[Bill K]

Hi guys,

Not to schill my own work but if you look through pages 201 to 205 of United States Army Shoulder Patches Vol 1 (1- 40th Div) you can find a decent selection of the color coded 35th Div patches. The book has been out for about 7 years and nothing has come to light that disputes the identifications in the section. Unfortunately not all of the variations are pictured as I was unable to find original examples or photos. Since the book came out I've done more research and found more original photos and patches. One for example is the 110th Engineer Regt. I can confirm that it had all white color sections from a photo in the AHEC (Army Heritage and Education Center, located in Carslile PA) collection.

 

ASMIC or American Scciety of Military Insignia Collectiors puts out a catalog of Divisional Patches with 39 different colored examples. Another decent little book (if you can find it) is Shoulder Sleeve insignia of the AEF by Morgan and Warren. They list the color combos.

 

A new book due out soon By Col Robert Delassandro, Director of AHEC and Mike Knapp (my brother and I helped with the photos) is a WW1 US Order of Batlle with an extensive photo section including the 35th Div. I don't have the title of it as it's currently in production. I can tell you it's going to be massive and probably one of the last books you'll need on the US in WW1.

 

Regards,

Bill Keller

[Bill K]

Mike,

 

Here's what I can tell you about your "cheat sheet"

 

Your FA regt's are correct. In my book I have 2 photos showing soldiers from FA units with the off color quadrant in the 12-3 o'clock position and 3-6 o'clock position. It seems there was a perscribed way and then there was the way the soldiers actually wore it!

 

Your 110th Eng is actually the 110th Engineer Train. The 110th Engineer was all white.

 

your 140th Inf is the 130th MG Bn the colors should be horizontal. I've seen shown both up and down.

 

Your first 137th is correct. Your second 137th is the 35th Div Headquarters Troop.

 

Your 139th Inf is correct. I'm not familiar with the second one.

 

Your 110th TM is correct.

 

Your 130th MG is actually the 140th Inf Regt.

 

Your 110th signal is correct.

 

Hope this isn't too confusing!

Regards,

Bill

[Guest fox579]

Thanks for the info Bill!

 

I'll keep a look out for the new book.