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Can you identify the clothing in this picture?


Gilles F.

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Hi guys

 

I'm trying to set up a new mannequin based on the following picture, taken in Germany on March 24, 1945:

 

http://www.oldhickory30th.com/120th%203rd%...3%2025%2045.jpg

 

I'd like to portray the man on the right as being an automatic rifleman (BAR gunner) during the allied invasion of Germany.

By then, most of the 30th Infantry Division men wore the M43. I already have the buckle boots and I'm planning to buy a flex bail M1 helmet. However, what type of trousers is he wearing? The regular wool trousers or the M43? What's the most plausible choice?

 

The next picture might also be useful: http://www.oldhickory30th.com/Heggen%20Col...%20Bazooka.jpg , taken in the Netherlands, September 1944 (no buckle boots though and different offensive).

 

Best regards,

Gilles F.

"Let's get the hell outta here!"

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To me they look more like Mustards (Wool trousers), and the jackets being M41.

 

Regards, Bez

Historian and Author.

"And Suddenly They Were Gone." - An oral and pictorial history of the 82nd Airborne Division in England.
"My Clear Conscience." - Biography of E.Company, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment veteran, George Shenkle (all proceeds to charity).

Working on three volume series about US IX Troop Carrier Command, starting with 52nd Troop Carrier Wing and would cherish any information (including wartime memorabilia) or photographs anyone has to share.

 

www.overlord-publishing.com

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To me they look more like Mustards (Wool trousers), and the jackets being M41.

 

Regards, Bez

 

Ah ok, I was thinking the same thing. The jacket isn't really recognizable in this picture but since it was taken in March 1945 and I already have an M41 in my collection, I prefer the M43 (I try to have a diversified collection). But is it realistic to have the wool pants and the M43 combined?

 

By the way, why did a lot of soldiers wear the blanket with them on their back? Wasn't it easier to just use a musette or other bag?

"Let's get the hell outta here!"

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Thats not a blanket, it's more likely to be a raincoat. That soldier most certainly doesn't have all his kit with him, its possible that photo was taken during a Patrol. On patrols kit was often left behind, made in easier to fight if they had to.

 

The reason i say they're mustards and M41 is because they appear to me to be too light in colour. Even in black and white photos M43's have a very distinguishable colour.

 

Regards, Bez

Historian and Author.

"And Suddenly They Were Gone." - An oral and pictorial history of the 82nd Airborne Division in England.
"My Clear Conscience." - Biography of E.Company, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment veteran, George Shenkle (all proceeds to charity).

Working on three volume series about US IX Troop Carrier Command, starting with 52nd Troop Carrier Wing and would cherish any information (including wartime memorabilia) or photographs anyone has to share.

 

www.overlord-publishing.com

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Thats not a blanket, it's more likely to be a raincoat. That soldier most certainly doesn't have all his kit with him, its possible that photo was taken during a Patrol. On patrols kit was often left behind, made in easier to fight if they had to.

 

The reason i say they're mustards and M41 is because they appear to me to be too light in colour. Even in black and white photos M43's have a very distinguishable colour.

 

Regards, Bez

 

You're right about the colour difference. Good example is the second picture I included ;)

"Let's get the hell outta here!"

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Combination wool trousers and M43 field jacket is possible.

You see it in many photos.

 

Erwin

704th Tank Destroyer Battalion

 

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It's certainly possible, i just dont think it is in that picture.

 

bez

Historian and Author.

"And Suddenly They Were Gone." - An oral and pictorial history of the 82nd Airborne Division in England.
"My Clear Conscience." - Biography of E.Company, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment veteran, George Shenkle (all proceeds to charity).

Working on three volume series about US IX Troop Carrier Command, starting with 52nd Troop Carrier Wing and would cherish any information (including wartime memorabilia) or photographs anyone has to share.

 

www.overlord-publishing.com

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craig_pickrall

I vote for the M41 jacket and wool trousers too. The M41 is waist length while the M43 is long cut. The jacket he is wearing is waist length as you do not see anything below his equipment belt. The M43 trousers were made of poplin and had a shine to them while the wool asorbed light and were dull. I will bet these are wool. The same can be said for the other men in the pic too.

 

I think it is more likely the item on back of his belt is a poncho rather than a raincoat.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER, SADLY, HAS PASSED AWAY

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Thanks for the input. My objective is not to have a setup that is 100% identical to the picture, I simply use pictures as a reference for my displays to be realistic. It's interesting that these men still wore the M41, while in a lot of pictures of the 30th ID taken after the liberation of Belgium and the Netherlands most of the men can be seen wearing the M43. Maybe this unit had not received them or they had been with the division for a long time and didn't care about it?

 

The poncho would be an interesting detail for my setup, I will look into that.

 

Gilles

"Let's get the hell outta here!"

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Most Inf units seemed to suffer with the distribution of M43's. Other Divisions saw certain regiments recieve them, others not. With the whole of the US army being re-issued this uniform, it was a tall order.

 

regards, Bez

Historian and Author.

"And Suddenly They Were Gone." - An oral and pictorial history of the 82nd Airborne Division in England.
"My Clear Conscience." - Biography of E.Company, 508th Parachute Infantry Regiment veteran, George Shenkle (all proceeds to charity).

Working on three volume series about US IX Troop Carrier Command, starting with 52nd Troop Carrier Wing and would cherish any information (including wartime memorabilia) or photographs anyone has to share.

 

www.overlord-publishing.com

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I think I have found the same picture from a different angle. Even though the site (www.oldhickory30th.com, great site btw) says this picture was taken one day after the previous one, it ressembles the previous (first) picture a lot. Just look at the road, the ditch and the equipment ...

 

http://www.oldhickory30th.com/Mar25PhotoPistol.jpg (new picture)

 

compared to

 

http://www.oldhickory30th.com/120th%203rd%...3%2025%2045.jpg (picture I mentioned in my first post)

"Let's get the hell outta here!"

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craig_pickrall
I think I have found the same picture from a different angle. Even though the site (www.oldhickory30th.com, great site btw) says this picture was taken one day after the previous one, it ressembles the previous (first) picture a lot. Just look at the road, the ditch and the equipment ...

 

http://www.oldhickory30th.com/Mar25PhotoPistol.jpg (new picture)

 

compared to

 

http://www.oldhickory30th.com/120th%203rd%...3%2025%2045.jpg (picture I mentioned in my first post)

 

 

I think you are right. It appears to be the same 2 men. Nice that the one man had the BAR which helps to match up the details.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER, SADLY, HAS PASSED AWAY

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craig_pickrall
Craig, why do you think it's more likely a poncho than a raincoat?

 

THe rain coat fits the upper body closely but when it gets below the waist it flairs out quite a bit at the skirt. When you fold this up the bottom has a lot more material than the top. The top also is enclosed because of the shoulders of the coat and the bottom is open.

 

The poncho is a rectangle and when you fold it up it is pretty much equal size the entire length. Also both ends are open and look alike.

 

If you blow the pic of the BAR man up as large as you can then look at the folded item it looks like a poncho and not a rain coat.

 

Try it with any rain coat and maybe a table cloth or tarp and you will see what I mean. It doesn't have to be GI issue just something that resembles the GI stuff and you will see.

PLEASE NOTE: THIS COMMUNITY MEMBER, SADLY, HAS PASSED AWAY

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