Chrome USMC 1219c2 knife Camillus, NY, USMC

[WarrenMcQ]

I know this has been discussed in the past but I'd like to know if there is any more information on the pedigree of these factory chrome plated Camillus 1219c2 and when they were made and used.

Also why were they made and how many were made.

Thanks to all,

Warren in Arizona

[WarrenMcQ]

More Pics

 

I know this has been discussed in the past but I'd like to know if there is any more information on the pedigree of these factory chrome plated Camillus 1219c2 and when they were made and used.

Also why were they made and how many were made.

Thanks to all,

Warren in Arizona

[WarrenMcQ]

Another Pic

[doyler]

I dunno but it looks like it was buffed bright to me.The letters/markings on the guard are still dark.

 

As for the plated ones I have always understoof them to be a post war commercial process.

 

RD

[gunbarrel]

Late WWII issue that's been monkeyed with. Not originally plated.

[WarrenMcQ]

Thanks for your replies,

according to all the reference books, Cole, Silvey and Silvey&Boyd the Chromed Camillus guard marked 1219c2 is a legitimate variation.

How do you tell if this is a real one or not, it looks like the pictures shown in these books.

I was hoping to find out more about these knives then what was printed twenty years ago and ways to authenticate it.

It is chromed and it doesn't look like a rework. I'll post more pics of whatever view needed if that will help.

 

Thanks to all,

Warren in Arizona

[gunbarrel]

Warren,

 

I took a second look at your knife, and I may have been too hasty in throwing an opinion out there. At first it looked like it had been buffed, but now I think that it could be indeed be one of the guard marked chrome plated knives that Camillus produced for the Naval Advanced Base units during WWII. I just don't remember if they were marked USN, USMC, or if they made both. I say wait until Frank Trzaska comes around and he'll tell you for sure.

[tsellati]

Actually, what you should do is post this thread over here as well - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdis...llector-s-Forum

 

Phil Gibbs, and I think other board members, are former long-time employees of Camillus. If you are looking to learn more about the history of this chromed knife, Phil is the guy you want to talk to.

 

Tim

[Jack's Son]

Let me add one, although I believe it is Stainless Steel. :think:

I have just referred to my notes, and this blade has been plated, but not polished.

 

 

[gunbarrel]

JS,

 

You are right. I don't think the blade in your "UDT" knife is S.S. I believe it is a bright blade.

[Jack's Son]

JS,

 

I don't think they made your knife in S.S. Of course, I've learned to never say never (most of the time :pinch: )...

No GB, they didn't, I added a note to the post a bit later. It was Chrome plated, but not polished.

[doyler]

JS

 

Your knife shows why I think the original posters knife is polished .Your knife shows plating deep in the markings.The other knife in my opinion shows the remains of parkerizing in the lettering.The area when polished left the parkerizing in the lettering.I also own one of the so called UDT knives.Being plated or bright but not polished to a mirror finnish.

 

 

RD

[Jack's Son]

RD,

After looking at the thread, I began to think my knife was stainless because of the deep, dull look. After posting it, I looked deeper into my notes and found that the knife was plated, just not polished. Makes quite a difference!

These were/are called UDT knives, but for reasons that are of such secrecy, we don't even know!!

[gunbarrel]

These were/are called UDT knives, but for reasons that are of such secrecy, we don't even know!!

 

JS,

 

Charlie Flick explains the UDT knives on this thread. I also have the Frank Trzaska article he refers to.

 

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ind...2823&hl=UDT

[WarrenMcQ]

Yes, I remember the excitement on the forums when the truth about the UDT knives was discovered but I didn't hear the updated information on the Camillus knives. I was hoping Frank would pop in to give the answer about my knife one way or the other. It IS plated, the story I remember was that they were knives taken right out of stock and disassembled. They were buffed, plated and reassembled and then shipped to wherever. I've asked the same question over at the Camillus forum but neither Tom or Phil have replied yet.

Those plated Kabar UDT knives were the holy grail of MK2 collecting for some time until more info was found and as far as I'm concerned they still have a place in a collection of the MK2/1219c2 fighting knives.

 

Thanks to All,

Warren in Arizona

[Frank Trzaska]

Hello Warren,

Camillus did indeed make a chrome plated model like yours during World War Two. It was a Camillus model 5684 Q19. The knives were made in 3/14/1944 and modeled after the then current Q3 offering having the thin pinned on butt. Other then the finish the knife was the identical twin of the Parkerized version. The additional steps were:

 

Blade

Glaze Blood Groove

Extra Good Hand Glaze including backs and ends

Machine Buff

Chrome Plate @ .07 each

Hand buff after plating

 

Butt

Glaze both sides

Buff (Hand)

Plate @ .01 each

Hand Buff after Plating

 

Guard

Grind and Glaze sides

Machine Buff

Hand Buff

Plate @ .01 each

Hand Buff

 

Hand assemble with 1 7/8 x .120 pin

 

The knives were samples made for use by the U.S. Navy Advanced Base unit.

 

Samples: 1 dozen Camillus Cutlery Corp

1/2 dozen New York

 

Total numbers made that we know of are 18. How many made in total I have never found the numbers.

 

 

They also made a 5684 Q20 that has not been written about before... Not that I can remember writing about anyway...

 

It was chrome plated as the above knife except it had an M3 type grip and an M3 butt with a single pin retainer.

 

Camillus made a large amount of prototypes and samples for the military during the war. The intent to use parts on several knives was attempt to speed production and save money, it was the military that did not cooperate, branch rivalry is distinctly possible. Even in the common all metal GP Pocket knife the Army wanted one different from the Marine Corps in more then just the grip stamping. They changed the blade layout.

 

With all that said there is no way of telling if your knife is original or made a few years ago, there is noting to distinguish it as a prototype as made by Camillus. I can tell you they are very uncommon to run across.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

 

PS, as far as the "UDT" knives... I am still waiting to be proven wrong, please prove me wrong...

[WarrenMcQ]

Thanks Frank, I know these knives have been discussed over twenty years ago and they were sort of a mystery then but your info narrows it down some. I'll just have to hope mine isn't a knockoff.

It would be nice to hear from anyone else who has run across one of these just to compare notes.

Thanks Again,

Warren in Arizona

 

Hello Warren,

Camillus did indeed make a chrome plated model like yours during World War Two. It was a Camillus model 5684 Q19. The knives were made in 3/14/1944 and modeled after the then current Q3 offering having the thin pinned on butt. Other then the finish the knife was the identical twin of the Parkerized version. The additional steps were:

 

Blade

Glaze Blood Groove

Extra Good Hand Glaze including backs and ends

Machine Buff

Chrome Plate @ .07 each

Hand buff after plating

 

Butt

Glaze both sides

Buff (Hand)

Plate @ .01 each

Hand Buff after Plating

 

Guard

Grind and Glaze sides

Machine Buff

Hand Buff

Plate @ .01 each

Hand Buff

 

Hand assemble with 1 7/8 x .120 pin

 

The knives were samples made for use by the U.S. Navy Advanced Base unit.

 

Samples: 1 dozen Camillus Cutlery Corp

1/2 dozen New York

 

Total numbers made that we know of are 18. How many made in total I have never found the numbers.

They also made a 5684 Q20 that has not been written about before... Not that I can remember writing about anyway...

 

It was chrome plated as the above knife except it had an M3 type grip and an M3 butt with a single pin retainer.

 

Camillus made a large amount of prototypes and samples for the military during the war. The intent to use parts on several knives was attempt to speed production and save money, it was the military that did not cooperate, branch rivalry is distinctly possible. Even in the common all metal GP Pocket knife the Army wanted one different from the Marine Corps in more then just the grip stamping. They changed the blade layout.

 

With all that said there is no way of telling if your knife is original or made a few years ago, there is noting to distinguish it as a prototype as made by Camillus. I can tell you they are very uncommon to run across.

 

All the best

Frank Trzaska

 

PS, as far as the "UDT" knives... I am still waiting to be proven wrong, please prove me wrong...

[Boy Howdy]

Hello from the future.....LOL

Yes, I know, an old post but I am looking on opinions on a Camillus,  NY Mk. 2 I just got on eBay.

I saw that more than a few Knife OG's had responded to the OP's thread.

The blade and butt are chromed and there is plenty of chrome in the lettering.

Does this look like a war time production knife, meaning WW 2, or later.

I really like the brown scabbard. Hope its original.

Any comments greatly appreciated.

 

[sactroop]

This might be a Camillus trail blazer, Model 1009 with the sword brand blade. They did use the U.S./CAMILLUS N.Y. marked blades for these.  Definitely 60's to 2-74 time frame.

[Boy Howdy]

Thank you for that info.

It doesn't appear to have the "SWORD BRAND" marking on the blade.

That's still a good vintage for these knives IMHO.

[Charlie Flick]

BoyHowdy:

 

Sactroop has steered you right on this blade.  It is not USGI.  Rather, it is a knife made for the civilian market.  See the Camillus catalog page below which identifies this and other models. 

 

The Model 1009 came with a funky leather sheath.  Frankly, the replacement sheath that your example displays is a great improvement in my view.  Note also the guard S-shaped in profile which is another characteristic of this civilian model.

 

Your example is missing the blade etching.  It was most likely worn off.  It was located on the left side of the blade below the fuller.  Etching is not very durable so it is easily worn off.

 

HTH.

 

Regards,

Charlie

[Boy Howdy]

Charlie,

Thank you very much.

I really like it when a vintage ad shows up.

I think I got a bargain and I really do like the sheath it comes with.

[sactroop]

Yes the 1009 and 1010 were the way Camillus was making those military knives available to the public  before they started offering the contract models to the public.  I guess leaving the blades bright made them civilized enough for the general public.😁

Charlie do you have a date for the add you posted above?  From the stuff I've been able to check the earliest catalog adds for the Government knives I found were 1972.

[Charlie Flick]

Sactroop:

 

Sorry, the catalog material I have on this knife is undated.

 

Here is an image lifted off of an Ebay auction that shows this Model as it was sold by Camillus.

 

Charlie

 

 

[sactroop]

Thanks Charlie for trying.  The description on the Marine Combat knife 5684 looks to be the same as one in the 1978 Camillus catalog.  I agree with you that I like the sheath that came with Boy Howdy's knife better.