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dated 1946 occupation Ike reconstruction


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#1 Christopher

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Posted 27 March 2009 - 09:28 AM

I purchased a dated 1946 Ike jacket over the weekend for $10.00. It has no patches of any kind, but you can see the shadows. I'm in the process of finding patches to match the shadows. I'll post pics when it is finished.

#2 Christopher

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Posted 30 March 2009 - 09:19 AM

I purchased a dated 1946 Ike jacket over the weekend for $10.00. It has no patches of any kind, but you can see the shadows. I'm in the process of finding patches to match the shadows. I'll post pics when it is finished.


last night I broke out the magnifying glass and searched all over that jacket for clues as to what was originally on it. On the left I found "red" tread and on the right I found "blue" thread stuck in the shadows! This was a big help. I assuming that one would use red thread for a red patch, in this case maybe the 7th ID or 24 ID both red. Blue, now that is is different matter... there are so many blue patches, but the clue was the stitches were 3 1/4" across, big patch.
So anybody have any ideas as to what the "big" patch could be?

Edited by Christopher, 30 March 2009 - 09:21 AM.


#3 Captainofthe7th

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 11:44 AM

Patch restoration from ghosts is always interesting, but so frustrating. Without knowing the geometric pattern for the blue stitches, I would guess the following patches could be suitable:

7th Army, 11th A/B, USAEUR, 187th RCT

The widest point on the 7th Army is of course the base, and the widest on the 11th, 187th, and USAEUR would be the arc on top.

I'm sure you know the difference in diameter between a 24th ID patch and most other circular patches. That could be a good clue to rule it in or out.

The only other "round" red patch I can think of commonly seen post WWII would be 8th army.

Hope that helps.

Rob

#4 Christopher

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 09:29 AM

I talked to the lady who I bought it from, finally getting ahold of her. She discribed a red, white, and blue circular patch stitched in red.......SHE REMOVED IT! Anyways. what she drew for me was the Army Service Force, DA Staff Support patch. That patch does fit exactly in place. Next step is the right sleeve to figure out what the blue patch was.

#5 Christopher

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 07:16 PM

last night I broke out the magnifying glass and searched all over that jacket for clues as to what was originally on it. On the left I found "red" tread and on the right I found "blue" thread stuck in the shadows! This was a big help. I assuming that one would use red thread for a red patch, in this case maybe the 7th ID or 24 ID both red. Blue, now that is is different matter... there are so many blue patches, but the clue was the stitches were 3 1/4" across, big patch.
So anybody have any ideas as to what the "big" patch could be?


ok finally have photos of my reconstruction KW Ike! This weekend i went to a Militaria show in Minneapolis, MN.
I found every thing that I think I needed except: Distingushed Unit pins and ribbon bars
After 2 months of research I finally got it 90% done! Still need to deside on which patch to go with, the 24 ID which would make the uniform correct according to date 1946, patch shadows, pin holes, and thread found. Or the ASF (Army Service Forces) which was disbanded in 1946 leaving only a small handfull of people left in offices. The lady who I purchased it from said she thought it had the ASF patch and she may be right, but was it original? I'll never know? All I know is that this Ike was used during the Korean War and with that here is my educated vision of the original uniform. Tell me what you all think good and bad, please.

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#6 Rakkasan187

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 05:44 AM

One item I noticed is the artillery collar brass with infantry blue disks. The blue disks and shoulder cord were only authorized for infantrymen. The infantry accoutrements were authorized on 27 August 1952, and included a rayon branch of service scarf, infantry shoulder cord and blue disks f or the US and crossed rifle collar brass. You will need to find a set of domed crossed rifles for an infantryman to make it correct. Other than that you have all the correct items. You mentioned you will need a ribbon bar, so I would look for one with the 3 main ribbons for the Korean conflict, the National Defense Service ribbon, the United Nations ribbon and the Korean War service ribbon. This individual may have other awards as well if he served on occupation duty in Japan he would have the Army of Occupation ribbon, the Army Good Conduct Ribbon (again depending on time in service) and possibly valor awards such as Bronze Star ribbon, Purplr Heart Ribbon etc. The outline of the Distinctive Unit Insignia is seen on the green leadership tabs. I will look at my infantry DI's and try to figure out which it may be from the shape, (If in fact it is Infantry).

MSG Leigh E Smith Jr
US Army (retired) 1984-2005
187th ABRCT

(RAKKASANS)

#7 Christopher

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 06:40 AM

One item I noticed is the artillery collar brass with infantry blue disks. The blue disks and shoulder cord were only authorized for infantrymen. The infantry accoutrements were authorized on 27 August 1952, and included a rayon branch of service scarf, infantry shoulder cord and blue disks f or the US and crossed rifle collar brass. You will need to find a set of domed crossed rifles for an infantryman to make it correct. Other than that you have all the correct items. You mentioned you will need a ribbon bar, so I would look for one with the 3 main ribbons for the Korean conflict, the National Defense Service ribbon, the United Nations ribbon and the Korean War service ribbon. This individual may have other awards as well if he served on occupation duty in Japan he would have the Army of Occupation ribbon, the Army Good Conduct Ribbon (again depending on time in service) and possibly valor awards such as Bronze Star ribbon, Purplr Heart Ribbon etc. The outline of the Distinctive Unit Insignia is seen on the green leadership tabs. I will look at my infantry DI's and try to figure out which it may be from the shape, (If in fact it is Infantry).

MSG Leigh E Smith Jr
US Army (retired) 1984-2005
187th ABRCT

(RAKKASANS)


Thank you very much for you insight. I was kind of wondering about the artillery collar tabs. Thank you for pointing that out.

#8 Christopher

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 04:45 PM

This is the Ike with the 24th ID

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#9 Christopher

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:01 PM

and the same uniform with the Army Service Forces patch that the lady at the antique store said it had. Again this is a contract dated 1946 so this ike might not have even been distributed till '47. Army Service Forces was disbannded in '46 so that would eliminate this patch. Tell me if this makes sense to you and please tell me your ideas.

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Edited by Christopher, 21 April 2009 - 05:02 PM.


#10 ItemCo16527

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Posted 30 April 2009 - 01:05 AM

Could the combat patch have been for the 3rd Army, or is its patch too small?

#11 Christopher

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 03:06 AM

The 6th army patch would be the correct patch for this uniform, but things have changed as the Division patch has changed to the 24th ID instead of the Army Service Forces patch. So the educated option I went with for on this "early" Korean war uniform was the AA command patch which is the correct size/color of the shadow and thread found. In June of 1950, Battery A 26th AAA BN was attached to the 24th ID. Some were also attached as part of the 34th IR as Infantry on the front lines in I Company. These guys had a hell of a time, and haad heavy casualties. So there you have it. Thanx everyone. I'll post pics very soon.

#12 Wailuna

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:22 AM

...So the educated option I went with for on this "early" Korean war uniform was the AA command patch which is the correct size/color of the shadow and thread found. In June of 1950, Battery A 26th AAA BN was attached to the 24th ID....

You're stretching too far to justify the AA Command SSI on this uniform. AA Command's (and its successor's) primary mission was to provide air defense of the continental United States. AAA units in Korea were assigned to commands in Korea. In fact, Battery A, 26th AAA (AW) Bn. was assigned (not attached) to 24th ID in Japan before the Korean War and additional batteries of 26th AAA Bn. were formed in Korea during 1951. There was a bit more organizational hocus-pocus involved in bringing the 26th up to full battalion strength by October 1951 but the 26th was, in fact, assigned to 24th ID during the Korean War and its members would have worn 24th ID SSI.

Edited by Wailuna, 15 May 2009 - 10:25 AM.


#13 Christopher

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 03:15 PM

That may be, but i'm trying to piece together a puzzle that is missing 75% of the peices. All
I have to go on are shadows, thread remnents, photos, opinions of others, and lots of liturature.
So with that, I'm tring to make this uniform as correct as I can, and I know there are lots of combinations,
but this one is my best educated guess with the evidence provided. Everyones opinions are helpful and
I'm greatful to be part of such a wonderful group of people. Thank You All! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#14 Christopher

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 04:02 PM

I found these early korean war MSgt. chevrons at an antique store. Sorry, It stilll has the Artillery CI. I'll get an Infantry CI soon.
There were no signs of any kind of overseas service patches, so I didn't apply any. Also, I don't have service ribbons yet, but I can see where they go.
What do you all think? I want it to be correct, every opinion is important.

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#15 Captainofthe7th

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 05:26 PM

If those M/Sgt chevrons match the ghosts, then I can assume the following:

This fellow was in WWII in the AA unit, and later served in Korea with the 24th. Since he has these early stripes, I don't think the Inf cord or collar disc backings are appropriate. Can you tell how many ribbons should be on there? Are there pin holes for a 3 place ribbon bar and CIB or a 2 place ribbon bar over a 3 place bar and no CIB?

If those M/Sgt chevrons are over perfect ghosts, then you have a sweet early KW jacket going on there.

Rob

#16 Christopher

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 05:48 PM

The chevrons are temperaraly pinned on till I get some Sgt. 1st class chevrons of the same type. Sorry I forgot to mention that.
There are holes for a three ribbon bar and a CIB.

#17 Cobrahistorian

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 04:25 AM

The chevrons are temperaraly pinned on till I get some Sgt. 1st class chevrons of the same type. Sorry I forgot to mention that.
There are holes for a three ribbon bar and a CIB.


If there is evidence of a CIB, you may be barking up the wrong tree with the Artillery insignia. Artillerymen are not awarded CIBs unless they have a prior Infantry MOS.

Just my $.02. Good luck with the restoration!

Jon

#18 B229

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 11:10 AM

That may be, but i'm trying to piece together a puzzle that is missing 75% of the peices. All
I have to go on are shadows, thread remnents, photos, opinions of others, and lots of liturature.
So with that, I'm tring to make this uniform as correct as I can, and I know there are lots of combinations,
but this one is my best educated guess with the evidence provided. Everyones opinions are helpful and
I'm greatful to be part of such a wonderful group of people. Thank You All! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif


Well, what Wailuna posted isn't opinion, it's fact. The AA Command was responsible for anti-aircraft forces and training within the US, not overseas. Wearing an SSI on the right shoulder indicates the wearer's former wartime OVERSEAS service. The AA Command SSI would, therefore, not be worn on the right shoulder. The AA Command also makes no sense in combination with a CIB. If he earned a CIB, he served in an infantry unit in combat and his SSI-FWTS would probably have been an infantry division. The 44th Division SSI is a circle with a blue border, so is the 102d.

A few other points to consider: the OD wool jacket was authorized to be worn until October 1960, regardless of the date of manufacture of the jacket. Just because it says 1946 on the label doesn't mean it was only worn circa 1946. It could easily have been worn anytime throughout the 1950's.

The SSI for the Army Service Forces continued to be worn well after 1946, and is still authorized for wear.
From IOH: The shoulder sleeve insignia was approved for the War Department Overhead on July 30, 1941. It was redesignated for Headquarters, Services of Supply on March 27, 1942; redesignated as Army Service Force on March 12, 1943; redesignated Technical and Administrative Services on June 11, 1946; and redesignated as DA Staff Support on October 8, 1969.

#19 Christopher

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 07:49 PM

Thank you "B229" for all the great points. This is why i am a member of this forum, wealth of knowlege at your finger tips.

#20 Christopher

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Posted 19 May 2009 - 08:25 PM

Lets change directions on this. Here is the jacket as I purchased it.

Jacket is dated with 2 dates 1946/1948. Owner was in Korea because of early small korean War chevron shadows (can't be mistaken)
Current parent unit is? round patch / red thread
Former overseas unit is? round patch / blue thread
No overseas/service bars shadows
Has the early "small" Korean War rank chevron shadows (looks like Sergant 1st Class)
Has CIB holes
Has holes for 3 place ribbon bar
No "rupture duck" shadow
Had no collar insignia, holes were present
Has holes on shoulder straps for Combat Leader Indicators/DUI

Tell me your visions of who this soldier was. Thats it tell me what you guys think. I'm interested to find out what you come up with.

Edited by Christopher, 19 May 2009 - 08:26 PM.


#21 B229

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 06:17 AM

Lets change directions on this. Here is the jacket as I purchased it.

Jacket is dated with 2 dates 1946/1948. Owner was in Korea because of early small korean War chevron shadows (can't be mistaken)
Current parent unit is? round patch / red thread
Former overseas unit is? round patch / blue thread
No overseas/service bars shadows
Has the early "small" Korean War rank chevron shadows (looks like Sergant 1st Class)
Has CIB holes
Has holes for 3 place ribbon bar
No "rupture duck" shadow
Had no collar insignia, holes were present
Has holes on shoulder straps for Combat Leader Indicators/DUI

Tell me your visions of who this soldier was. Thats it tell me what you guys think. I'm interested to find out what you come up with.


Okay, let's see if we can iron some of this out for you.

The first date, 1946, is probably the pattern date, the second date is the contract date. All this really means is the jacket wasn't worn before 1948.

The smaller pattern 1948 chevrons have nothing to do with the Korean War. They were worn by all soldiers throughout the Army from 1948 until replaced in 1951. They came in two types: blue chevrons on a yellow-gold background to indicate combat arms soldiers and yellow-gold chevrons on a blue background to indicate everybody else.

If he served overseas for at least six months he would have a bar. The shadow may not show up, but I'm sure he at least one. He would also had service stripes if he is an senior NCO.

"CIB holes"...are you sure? Could just be another row of ribbons or wings. The three place ribbon bar doesn't give you much for an NCO who saw combat. Good Conduct/Theater Ribbon/Victory Medal, assuming he served in WWII. If those other holes are for another ribbon bar, maybe two ribbons, then you've got a bit more room.

If the soldier entered the service after WWII or never left the service at the end of WWII he wouldn't have a ruptured duck. It was for honorable discharge, so someone who wasn't discharged wouldn't have it.

Didn't you say in the begining that the current assignment SSI is the Tech & Admin Svcs (ASF)? Not real exciting, but if that's the right one then that's one you should use. The combat patch could be a variety of things besides the two divisions I already mentioned: Pacific Ocean Areas, AAF, etc.

So, we have an SFC who wore this jacket sometime between 1948 and 1951, was assigned to the Tech & Admin Svcs, and served overseas during either WWII or the Korean War, but more likely the former. He may have been an infantryman.

Does that help?

#22 B229

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 07:07 AM

Lets change directions on this. Here is the jacket as I purchased it.

Has holes on shoulder straps for Combat Leader Indicators/DUI

Tell me your visions of who this soldier was. Thats it tell me what you guys think. I'm interested to find out what you come up with.


Almost forgot this: the presence of DUI's does NOT indicate the soldier wore the green combat leadership tabs. They were worn only by combat arms soldiers in a leadership position, unlike today. Almost every soldier in the Army wore DUI's.

#23 Christopher

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 06:31 PM

thank you very much , very helpful.

#24 Christopher

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 06:57 PM

I think I 've learned a valuable lesson. If you don't have pics of the uniform as it origanally was, it is almost impossible to reconstruct it.
This very nice Ike I purchased for only $5 at an antique shop. It ment nothing to the people there, but now it will be a "reconstruction" of a 24th Infantry Division uniform from June 1950.


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