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M8 SCABBARD QUESTIONS


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#1 unterhund

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 04:25 AM

Was the earliest version of the M8 Scabbard meant to slide onto a pistol belt? Without the hooks of the later versions, I presume it was meant to slip onto a pistol belt as you might wear a knife sheath on a civilian belt. Yet in pictures, it doesn't seem to have a big enough "slot" to fit over a web pistol belt. Was it meant to be worn strictly on the leg with a strap? Or worn on the pants belt? If it was issued to BAR gunners (I believe it was issued to any combatant who did not carry an M1 or M1903 rifle), they certainly couldn't wear it on their BAR belts, could they?

Furthermore, I wonder at what point was the scabbard modified to include the hooks? Was this variation called the M8A1 from the get-go, or was it still referred to as the M8?

Thanks in advance for any help on this.

Edited by unterhund, 15 October 2008 - 04:27 AM.


#2 bayonetman

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:19 AM

This should answer most of your questions - go down about 2/3 of the way in the article.

http://www.usmilitar...yo_points_6.htm

After reading, please ask any other questions you may have.

#3 72newport

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 05:24 AM

This should answer most of your questions - go down about 2/3 of the way in the article.

http://www.usmilitar...yo_points_6.htm

After reading, please ask any other questions you may have.

Great info! Thanks bayonetman! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#4 unterhund

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 10:00 AM

Con muchos gracias, bayonetman! Most of my questions are answered by this link. However, I still wonder if Automatic Riflemen issued the M3 in an M8 scabbard might wear it on their leg. Perhaps this is one of several reasons that the M8 scabbard was modified to have the belt hooks. Anyone have pictures of the M3/M8 combination in use?

As a side note, I have seen a Life magazine photo by the great Eugene Smith, depicting a BAR gunner on Okinawa taking cover. Seen strapped on his "buckle boot" is what appears to be a non-issue sheath knife. Other great details are seen in this photo. I wish I could reproduce it, but it's a copyrighted image, with the copy feature disabled.

#5 bayonetman

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 05:40 PM

I have seen photos of the M3 knife in both the M6 and M8 scabbards worn in many different places by various soldiers. Very much a matter of personal preference and convenience. They were often worn strapped to the leg or to various items of equipment. The paratroopers were very inventive as to where they carried their knives.

A lot of private purchase knives were carried, some estimates are in the hundreds of thousands of knives such as the Pal RH 36 were purchased at Post Exchanges, Ships Stores and were sent from home. Again they were carried wherever they were comfortable. Frank Trzaska has many photos of both issue and private purchase knives being carried on his website. Go to the link for these photos.

http://www.usmilitar...photo_index.htm

#6 Mr-X

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 07:47 PM

Great info! Thanks bayonetman! http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif


I second that.

What a fantastic article full of all sorts of interesting information.
It's not everyday I learn something new about WW2. But today I leaned a lot.

Thanks http://www.usmilitar...tyle_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif

#7 artu44

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 11:04 PM

I like specially this pic (possibly from Mr. Flick) but I dont wanna spoil my holster doing that.

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  • m3holster.jpg


#8 SGM (ret.)

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 10:52 AM

Too bad the crossguard is not visible. If you look closely, it seems to me that the pommel has the M4 bayonet lug catches on its edges. If so, then this is probably an M4 bayonet in an M8 scabbard (even possibly an M8A1 scabbard with the belt hooks removed), not an M3 knife.

If that's the case, it's another example of "the only rule is that there are no rules" when it comes to what a soldier might do or have!

Mike

#9 Greg Robinson

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 12:04 PM

Too bad the crossguard is not visible. If you look closely, it seems to me that the pommel has the M4 bayonet lug catches on its edges. If so, then this is probably an M4 bayonet in an M8 scabbard (even possibly an M8A1 scabbard with the belt hooks removed), not an M3 knife.

If that's the case, it's another example of "the only rule is that there are no rules" when it comes to what a soldier might do or have!

Mike


LOoks like an M4 to me also.

Grege

#10 artu44

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 11:07 PM

It's no important it would be an M3 or an M4. Pic points out the habit to have M8 scabbard stuck behind the pistol holster unstitching a bit of the leather hook attachement. It is more firm and you have two grommets more free.

#11 unterhund

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 07:37 AM

It's no important it would be an M3 or an M4. Pic points out the habit to have M8 scabbard stuck behind the pistol holster unstitching a bit of the leather hook attachement. It is more firm and you have two grommets more free.


Greetings, friends. Returning to this forum after along absence, I have revived this thread to speculate on the knife in the above photo. If it is indeed an M4 bayonet, then wouldn't the photo be post-WWII? I have found very little evidence of M1 carbines with bayonet mounts in service during that war. Perhaps it is a Korean War photo?

#12 earlymb

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 06:45 AM

While the bajonet lug on the Carbine is most likely added post-May 1945, there is a nice pic of a 17AB para during Operation Varsity that is carrying an M4 bayonet. I'll see if I can find it.

Greetz ;)

David

#13 kjones5452

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 06:57 AM

Looks like the carbine might have a banana clip.

#14 J_Andrews

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 03:31 PM

once again: The M-4 knife-bayonet (its first nomenclature) entered mass production in early 1944 -- "early" meaning the first HALF. The new parts simply were used in place of the old style, as the old ones were expended. Thus some makers took longer to convert over to the M-4. They would have ent4ered the supply system just like the M-3s had and have been issued out as needed. "As needed" would have logically been, in the main, to equip FRESH units in the States as they beared up for overseas deployment. Individual replacements headed over may or may not have been issued with knives and/or knife-bayonets before leaving. (Photo evidence welcome!)

I have "the earliest known M-4 issued in Europe". I got it from Glider Pilot Iredell K. "Ike" Dye, who got it on 14 August 1944, as part of his field gear issue at an airfield outside Rome, for the DRAGOON operation, the invasion of S France. (NOTE: EUROPE, by not the ETO!) He carried it for S France, Holland and VARSITY, its only "mods" being he sharpened it and added OD riser cord as a tie-down.

There are several clear photos of the 17th in VARSITY (NOTE: ETO) that, if examined closely, show the M-4 in use. These include the much-published one of a 57mm RR team.

The 30-round mags and the bayonet studs took longer, longer to make, longer to distribute into the system and longer to get overseas. The First Army after action reports for Normandy/France, in the Ordnance section, mentions that selective fire carbines were field tested in the Normandy campaign -- but makes no mention of "M-2" nomenclature, quantities, units, mags, etc. Per 17th FA vets, in VARSITY they had selective fire carbines, but no 30-rd mags; they habitually fired 15 rds on full auto in one or two bursts, then reloaded.

#15 Gregory

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 04:08 AM

In mid-1944 most likely both sides of France, North and South, saw M4 bayonets. Below there is a photo captioned "US Soldier with French child, Normandy, France 1944". And the soldier has M4 in M8 scabbard. The photo by Signal Corps.

 

M4s were there and then and, perhaps, this is why Ordnance technicians tried to manufacture lugs for them using in-house methods before standardized lugs arrived from the USA, as Maj. Gen. Weaver writes about it in his memoirs.

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  • US Soldier with French child, Normandy, France 1944.jpg


#16 doyler

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 05:34 AM

Im seeing a Garand bayonet..the scabbard is longer and the top of the scabbard metal plate is flat.

All M8 scabbards had a angled edge on each side of the metal top plate whether the M3 or M4 was carried.

Also the grips are not grooved on the bayonet in the photo.They appear to be flat

#17 Misfit 45

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 05:37 AM

Your information is good, but the photo shows an M1 bayonet. Note the release button by the guard.

Marv



#18 SKIPH

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:29 AM

YUP!  It's an M1 bayonet.   SKIP




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